Deiloche
2009-07-16 |  | Collective Update Discussion |  |
Constructive criticism ONLY. If you don`t like something, say why. If you do like something, also say why. Useless posts are unacceptable.
Changes courtesy of: EphemeralEternity, BrokenSwordS, Deiloche, Raistlin
H.Galleon
K: 800 > 800
M: 100 > 100
Hull: 4,500 > 4,500
R: 9 > 9
Scanner: 100 > 100
Upkeep: 417 > 417
PR: 1,976 > 2,056
BR: 12 > 12
ES: 30 > 30
KS: -10 > -40
KS: -10 > -25
MS: -20 > -25
CS: 10 > 10
The PR changed because now the PR is actually calculated using the formula. Also made a bit more killable.
Red font has been done
MoW will be removed. Bai bai collective starbase. *Poof*
Edited by BrokenSwordS on 2009-08-13
Edited by Maraudian on 2009-08-13 |
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ChaosReborn
99+ day(s) ago | don`t you think making kinetic shields go althe way down to -40 is a bit much i mean -20 or 25 is reasonable but 40? collective rely on raiding to survive this just discourages people to even change to collective because they would probably lose most fights they get into with the lackage of durability |
Terminus
99+ day(s) ago | any news on the schonner with more energy damage? |
raven
99+ day(s) ago | bahh i dont even use the galleon . sloop and brig fleet ftw! |
Ragnarok
99+ day(s) ago | Not asking for a energy galleon, more like a range 9 version of the sloop with the appropriate changes for a range 9 ship like lodadilos said.
If you just increased the energy side instead of the kinetic side, I could live with the other changes in the schooner. |
BrokenSwordS
Game-Admin
99+ day(s) ago | we are working on a design.. be patient.. -_- |
Runnerman
99+ day(s) ago | deil: they ARE NOT asking for "as good as galleon"... just more energy less kenetic |
lodadilos
99+ day(s) ago | Thats what i meant, less damage and hull than the galleon of course, but pure energy attack, and switched defence mods.
the schooner could be developed from the sloop, increased range and defence mods but significant lower attack/PR ratio (collective history) |
Deiloche
99+ day(s) ago | Actually, as a guardian I don`t like brigs. :P And I`m not talking about flanking stacks. I`m talking about leading it in a three stack spam. If you don`t have fodder you`re pretty much smoked. But I`m not suggesting a change. The ship needs to be strong.
The schooner will NOT be made as good as the Galleon. Period. It will be made more useful. That`s it. |
Slavyzz
99+ day(s) ago | the schooner range nine with mainly energy would make it a lot more useful. I could care less about the no retal/no def since we have finally managed to get enough ships that have that.
The brig is not overpowered, as Ragnarok said those who complain about the brigantine are most likely cap spammers that have met with a flanking stack of brigs only to leave the battlefield with a bad taste left in their spamming mouths. |
lodadilos
99+ day(s) ago | I totally agree with Ragnarok, focusing the schooner in kinetic attack makes it even more in a weak copy of the galleon with changed defence mods.
With pure energy attack it would have its uses. |
Raistilin
99+ day(s) ago | You are looking at the changes, but have you actually tested them yet? |
Ragnarok
99+ day(s) ago | Or maybe even 750 energy, no kinetic for schooner.
Again, miner, terran, and marauder (and my extension viral) all have dependable long range energy ships while collective is stuck with the schooner. If you`re going to nerf galleon and delete MOW, at least compensate for it with a stronger, energy focused schooner. Even just sticking no retal on it and increasing its pr would be nice.
But by all accounts, looking at the current proposed schooner changes, it looks like you`re nerfing a ship that`s already marginal at best if used in the lower 5 stacks. |
Ragnarok
99+ day(s) ago | the brigantine`s main weakness is strafez, so it`s definitely killable. I suspect that the people who say it`s too powerful are the cap ship spammers, which the brig is specifically supposed to be able to defend against.
And i wasn`t necessarily saying that it should be as strong as the chlor or the pike, but it should be a viable long range energy ship. As is, the changes to the schooner will move it closer to the ignored younger step brother of the galleon.
Please, at the very least, increase the energy side dramatically and severely if not completely eliminate the kinetic side. Maybe along the lines of this:
E: 300 > 500
K: 300 > 250
Either that or add no retal. Other races have range 9+ ships with no retal, including the borr for a long time before its range was reduced to 8. Why not collective? |
Deiloche
99+ day(s) ago | I didn`t think you were objecting to the nerf. Just that you were trying to imply that the schooner should be that good. I want it to be useable, but it`s not meant to be a top pick ship for the race. The Sloop, Galleon and Brigantine are clearly the backbone ships of the collective fleet.
I`ve also heard a bunch of people say that the Brigantine, even after it`s nerf, is still too powerful. What is the general consensus on that? Should the Brigantine receive a mild nerf as well? If so, in what way is it too powerful? Any suggestions for fixing it while still maintaining it`s presence as one of "the" collective ships? |
ArcticFox
99+ day(s) ago | Erm.
Deil, I can`t seem to find any objection to nerfing the galleon in my previous. The one thing I said about changing the galleon is that BR be dropped to 10 after testing.
Anyway, my point is not about sheer power level. Its about versatilty. Hope that clarifies. |
Deiloche
99+ day(s) ago | The galleon is currently one of the top ships in the game. We are NOT trying to make the schooner that good. Clearly, we`re nerfing the galleon because it`s already too strong.
It`s buildrate will NOT be increased. It is already really high for a ship of that level, for ANY race, let alone collective. |
ArcticFox
99+ day(s) ago | Agree with Ragnarok for the most part.
Even without the missile attack, I`ve found galleon to be a much more versatile ship than schooner. The proposed changes to the schooner damage moves it closer to the galleon, but its still a far second.
So, do please consider schooner with:
Range 8, no retaliation with defense (i.e. more useful higher up in the stack)
Increasing energy instead of kinetic damage (possibly 500 energy/200 kinetic)
Possibly, build rate of 15 (making it a more viable build option higher in the stack for collective who like mid range battles).
The build rates can always be adjusted after 4-5 weeks of play. For example, if schooner spamming is widespread, possibly consider BR of 12 for schooner and dropping galleon BR to 10. |
Deiloche
99+ day(s) ago | Not going to make the schooner as good as the chlor or pike. :P Those are extremely good ships.
We are currently reviewing the collective changes. Except the removal of the MoW. That is happening. |
Ragnarok
99+ day(s) ago | If you don`t like the wordiness of my post, here`s a summery: Nerf galleon if you must, but give schooner a boost in the energy dept, a decrease in kinetic, and give it no retal (with or w/o no defense). Every other race has at least a range 9 ship with no retal, so why not collective? |
Ragnarok
99+ day(s) ago | I personally would like to see the galleon stay the same as is. The reason it was given a boost in the first place with the missile was to give the collective a little more bite vs guard which was a big issue back in the day.
As for the schooner, I really think that lowering the range to 8, giving it no retal with defense (or keep range at 9 with no retal, no defense), and increasing the energy instead of the kinetic side would make the schooner into a viable energy ship not unlike the garuda for terran. The collective needs a ship on the energy side such as the garuda for the terran, the pike for the marauder (tho i think it`s technically a kinetic/energy ship), and the epidote/chlor for the miner. The schooner is ok as a anti missile/anti strafez ship, but it doesn`t really pack a punch like the garuda, pike, or chlor in my estimation.
Of course I could be wrong, but that`s always the impression that i`ve had about the schooner. As is, it`s a ship i`m not all that inclined to use it except in maybe a lower stack in small numbers. Putting in no retal and increasing energy/decreasing kinetic would do much for this ship i think by giving us a ship like the galleon except on the energy side.
As it is, collective doesn`t really have any ships for energy that we can attack on aggressive with. Both the Snow and the sloop are better as "careful attack" ships that fit better with ships like the brig & pinnace than with the galleon, strafez and bark.
In all honesty, i would happily take a nerf with the galleon if it meant that the schooner would be a more viable energy attack ship like the garuda or chlor. |
