EphemeralEternity
2016-04-04 |  | Neutral updates are here |  |
First of all a big thanks goes out to BW for finding a very nice solution to integrating my new systems into GC this is the neutral updates i was talking about so long ago, E class was just a small part of this update. I`ve taken and made it so each neutral ship has an upkeep more in line with it`s racial ships, this will make balancing Econs for all races alot easier when we get to it this should also open up more fleet options for all races.
So first we have the 4 new E class ships This is the old E class thread for those of you who don`t know their stats.
Moving on Light corvette and Frigate have been removed from the game, LFD will be granted free upon restart no research needed and will remain unchanged for all races.
As you`ll notice the biggest change is Strafez, it has gotten a good deal more expensive for all, this will make UWing harder and more costly, it will also make it harder and more costly for those who like to fodder up to higher prs to research or dig and generally just avoid all the fun which i think we can all agree will bring more balance to the game runner has a cheaper upkeep to pr overall than fodder, but it`s also alot easier to kill.
Along with the above some research has been changed. the Light class researched has been swapped out for research concerning E class, Both fodder researches have been removed but fodder will be granted from creature research. we`ve also lowered the turn requirements on cluster research, some marauder ships and miner ships including G class lowered from 1,500 to 500 and Hun Li research has been lowered from 25,000 to 5,000 and Hun Xe research has been lowered from 25,000 to 2,500 turns further more BW came up with a way to augment turn requirements by servers. so then turn requirements for the research tree on ultra have been reduced by 15% fast 20% normal 30% and Slow 40%. Not none of these changes effect Infrastructure research
The Second Part of this is Fixing not only Viral upkeeps for captured and RE ships but we threw in collective as well so collectves don`t have destroy any ships they happen to capture for fear of crippling debt. also viral build cost is fixed
Everyone will have to click this link to update their shiplist Click here! Well any questions concerns comments or what ever you may have feel free to post in this thread
Edited by EphemeralEternity on 2016-04-04 |
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XWing
99+ day(s) ago | EE and Asmodean, thanks. :) |
Asmodean
99+ day(s) ago | You could almost replace the shield percentages with those effective hull numbers...at a glance youd see what your highest hull was on the build page. Very interesting. Thanks BW |
BadWolf
Game-Admin
99+ day(s) ago | Having read what TranquilSuns said, I came up with a fully detailed list of stats using shields and hull to work out effective hull rating of every ship. You can see that here:- Ship Statistics - Effective Hull |
TheSphere
99+ day(s) ago | In game design u cant control players. You can control the tools they play with. You gave everyone tools that break a race. Its not baised. Its fact. We posted numbers to prove it. This isnt based on how people FEEL players should play. These are numbers. They represent how the ships will be used. |
Asmodean
99+ day(s) ago | @EE fond memories of Sagas enslaving spree
The establishment is stubborn it seems.. |
TranquilSuns
99+ day(s) ago | Lumping all of the ships together is very misleading. Miner, Terran, and marauder have at least a few ships that are pretty junky and not particularly usable.
It is also misleading to compare those numbers given that shield mods are essentially being removed from the conversation. Miners have had the biggest disadvantage to missile damage since the previous ship change all those years ago. They (race specific) have one definitive answer to missile and it generally takes a beating in its current fashion given the small hull and range.
Now, not only does everyone already have unique missile ships (already was the most commonly used weapon type among races) they get even more, and miner most of all will have the least amount of options to combat this.
And I don`t think using starbases as a counter option holds much weight in the conversation either, because then you`re cutting them even further from the battlefield, relegating them to have less offense and thus, even less attacking opportunities as anyone else. |
EphemeralEternity
99+ day(s) ago | it`s not skewing anything it`s an average of all racial ships for those races except starbases and scouts, it`s just paint a picture of data, like any data anyone presents you`ve got to take it and break it down see how or if it applies to you. everyone uses certain ships for their own reason, i`m pretty sure there`s a miner or two out there that think they only ships they have a livid lyth and chlor and fodders because thats all i`ve ever seen them used at any pr. same way with some terrans in the past who only ever used Tyr herc and nirvana |
Omegian
99+ day(s) ago | Helms, that is a fair point, however we aren`t as "Biased" to this update as you think we are. I am all for more data, but if a person has the time to build the E Class, they probably won`t use all their racial missile class ships. Anyhow, call us biased if you wants, but this was across 2 feds and people like you Helms fighting us. It is more a hot topic, but an unbalance for some races that use them and it is somewhat obvious some races do need 1-2 more e. ships, while others don`t. But if the future ship tweaks and racial tweaks can resolve this as I said previously then I am all for it instead of being "biased" about this update as Helms has said.
Also, EE about those ship averages, in that data you provide, I think you are including ships that are not always used or the preferred ships that a person of say an A. Miner would use or Terran would use, which I think is skewing the data you present. I know two of my bigger hull ships are rarely used in my stack mainly due to how weak they are if they get hit on aggressive. |
Asmodean
99+ day(s) ago | Knocking down the BR a bit for E class makes sense.. it may solve the problem without killing the spirit of the ships.. |
Zanarkand
99+ day(s) ago | Ugh. Okay, I`m gonna put this bluntly.
Neutral ships are good, but still OP. We don`t need new ships that people can just spam around as they please. I haven`t encountered this issue yet, but it`s a matter of time. Should they be taken out? No. It brings a new aspect to the game. But taken down a peg? Maybe. You never make a ship just perfect on the first try. |
Helms{}Deep
99+ day(s) ago | If you slow the BR down, that is affecting how they are used, and in turn does cut down on the functionality. They cant build good PR AND have good weapons; you get good weapons but slower PR. Now, if an empire has a while to build them, like a long time, ok, but seeing E class in higher PR if they build like C class won`t be a huge problem. I would still build the M class missile ships, and even more so if I could in affect double my pr if my choices were Chlorite vs E class. The other thing that is a trend, and has been for some time, is there arent a lot of stacking Miners out there( or anyone for that matter). Five stacks is usually the most that I see out there from a Miner, so when you have ships like in the shipyard that build bigger PR than Chlorites, I think that is a bigger reason why M class isnt used, not because they are junk, because they arent. That goes with E class, and I think the reason why E class is such a hot topic is A) they are new, B) they have range, C) they build fairly fast; now everyone can have ranged missile. Cutting BR`s makes them less useful if you need to build PR, especially faster PR. As a Terran, if I have to choose from P class vs slower E class, I am going with P class. I think before any tweaking is done to weapons/hulls, I want to see a reduction in BR to see how that does. And, if any tests are to be done, they should be tests that are thought out, handed out to more than just one fed to make it `official`, and I think scenarios need to be thought of and done to get a real test done. As I appreciate the feedback from Omegian and his fed of `testers`, I also want to see tests from other groups that aren`t as biased against these updates as they have been. |
Omegian
99+ day(s) ago | Slowing their buildrate doesnt really affect their functionality as it just means I have to spend more time building them. While I am open to hearing other ship tweaks in option A, option F of some kind is warranted based upon the fights and others in my fed did. I am not saying to do those needs mentioned, but tweaks have to be made. |
Helms{}Deep
99+ day(s) ago | Im with Asmo on this one, leave them in the game, dont nerf them. If anything, I like option B, lower the BR of each ship. This will make each class ship more valuable because you can build them faster, we won`t be seeing spams of E class being thrown everywhere because they can build somewhat fast, and if you want to use them, you will have to take the time to build them. I think this helps out Miner and Guard because if you are one of those races, and see someone building really really slow, you might need to preemptive strike to make sure you aren`t getting obliterated from E class. This will make M class more valuable( to those who can`t or dont want to see how good they are) and should make them relevant again. |
Asmodean
99+ day(s) ago | Alot of work went into those ships... and already theres folks who want to nerf them. Leave them be. |
EphemeralEternity
99+ day(s) ago | Well RL has been hectic so I haven`t had a chance to respond and i`m tired now so i`m not going to reply like I should just going to hit on some key notes and a tangent or two I want to speak on.
People seem to forget about the unique properties of chlorite and calcite they look worse on paper that they really are but as missile cruisers and destroyers go they are one of a kind, they`re the only ones that lack no defense, out of all races, that gives them the potential to do more damage than appears on paper and their survivablity isn`t so bad
Chlorite has a 0.8 damage to pr ratio. Against ships that lack no retal and no defense that ratio increase to 1.2 . it`s hull to pr ratio is .64
Calcite has a 0.49 damage to pr ratio, Against ships that lack no retal and no defense that ration increases to 0.74 it`s hull to pr ratio is 1.1
for reference
Nova is 0.47 hull ratio of 1.7
quasars is 0.99 hull ratio of 0.33
tigers is 0.8 hull ratio of 1
sting is 0.62 hull ratio of 0.62
bark is 0.39 hull ratio of 0.39
odin is 1.05 hull ratio of 0.62
thor 0.98 hull ratio of 0.30
zues is 0.79 hull ratio of 0.56
As you can see chlorite has the highest potential missile damage to pr out of all these missile boats and more hull to pr than a good bit of the others (I know tiger is very very OP established long ago) now there is one missile boat that can do more damage than chlorite and that is pulsar with normal damage to pr ratio of .94 and potential of 1.4 with a 1.09 hull to pr ratio, but it also lacks no retal and no defense so it won`t survive as well as the that hull number would have you believe to certain ships
i`m not trying to disprove anything just point out something that I think most people miss about those ships also most miner ships are underrated as a whole because they`re not the biggest or best in their categories and their weapons are low but they survive well. Most people want to play aggressive they want to spam with high damage high hull ships or they want to stack and hit on aggressive, miner is a different play style, while they can be successful in these roles they`re just not as great as other they would probably be better off played with a bit of caution i`m going to list some stats from my thread set in the strategy sections for everyone to compare.
Miner Averages.
Weapons/Pr .54072
Hull/pr 1.39819
Pr per turn 44,601
Weapons per turn 23,200
Hull per turn 59,123
Terran Averages.
Weapons/Pr .62533
Hull/pr 1.15977
Pr per turn 37,848
Weapons per turn 22,010
Hull per turn 44,836
Guard Averages.
Weapons/Pr .56556
Hull/pr 1.47132
Pr per turn 74,720
Weapons per turn 37,292
Hull per turn 105,846
Marauder Averages.
Weapons/Pr .64703
Hull/pr 1.14908
Pr per turn 36,587
Weapons per turn 26,186
Hull per turn 38,268
Collective Averages.
Weapons/Pr .75294
Hull/pr 1.33968
Pr per turn 42,551
Weapons per turn 30,069
Hull per turn 57,234
I`m not going to comment on the rest of Omegs post as I think it gets more into how the game is played how it should be played and how people think it should be played (not saying mine isn`t heavily opinionated). I still encourage you all to make sure that you read it and let it sink and and draw your own conclusions and comment don`t just tl;dr it like i`m sure many of you have and will with this post as well.
But still yet on the case of E class I propose the following options we can do a mix of these or what have you but anyhow
Option A, change nothing, wait for further ships changes as miner ships may get better and these may get worse any how I haven`t made any definite plans and won`t for ships until I get econs figured out.
Option B, Lower the BR by 30-50% on all E class ships, making them more like Aries and Gemini, quality ships but slow and cumbersome to build which of course will matter a lot on TB more so than RT but don`t kid yourself it matters on RT too, if not try building 8000 turn worth of ships so a guard can hit and lose, but his entire fleet cost under 2,000 turns but you won right woot, no... no you didn`t you poor sap, even if you come out and counter and win and wipe him, by the time you build 10 mil more pr in ships he can back at you`re pr or higher to hit you again, you won a battle, he`s winning the war.
Option F
changes the stats and i`ve not tested these changes so i`m spit-balling what I think would probably work best depending on the options though I will test if there`s enough support to do some of these. Without touching the range as much as possible
On the Aurora, lower the energy by 1 damage and the range by 1 and the pr by 1 will do bit less damage, be easier to counter, have more ships that can stand toe to toe with it but the hull to pr increase just slightly to counter a major loss In range could also add in no defense, at 6 range I don`t think you`d need to do that
Nova drop the hull by 200-300 if it`s really needed
Pulsar lower the damage by 200, any thing else breaks the spirit of the ship
Quasar lose 600 missile damage cut the hull in half lower the pr by 100, turns it into more of a queen or runner than anything still keeps the range, generally will hit first do some major damage but what ever it doesn`t kill will surely destroy it
all these numbers would need tweaking and if there`s enough enough support to try some of these tweaks i`ll study hard and throw out some better numbers, but honestly I don`t want to touch any of the ranges of the ships if I did I may as well resign them completely as they`re suppose to add some range to the neutral ship list remember it`s not an all or nothing and we can have a mix of categories.
and no wing, it`s a bonus ship a trophy that has a use
Edited by EphemeralEternity on 2016-04-13 |
RipVanWingnut
99+ day(s) ago | E class makes the Erster a useless ship. Could changing ersters stats be considered? |
Omegian
99+ day(s) ago | Thank you EE for the assist. I had a few of my fedmates and myself share battles for the past 2-3 days while testing the E. Ships. We then began to ask ourselves many questions and concluded the following:
Edited by EphemeralEternity on 2016-04-09 |
americanministry
99+ day(s) ago | no just get rid of neutral ship list and add them with their specific modifiers to each races ship list in the manual |
SPARTAN240
99+ day(s) ago | @ EphemeralEternity might need to add each race to the top of the neutral ship page with an individual link for each.
Normal Link Neutral - http://gc.gamestotal.com/i.cfm?p=manual&file=ship2&rid=0&sid=10
Updated Link Neutral Terran - http://gc.gamestotal.com/i.cfm?p=manual&file=ship2&rid=0&sid=10&r=1
Updated Link Neutral A.miner - http://gc.gamestotal.com/i.cfm?p=manual&file=ship2&rid=0&sid=10&r=6
Updated Link Netural Maru - http://gc.gamestotal.com/i.cfm?p=manual&file=ship2&rid=0&sid=10&r=2
Updated Link Netural D.Mar - http://gc.gamestotal.com/i.cfm?p=manual&file=ship2&rid=0&sid=10&r=8
EXAMPLE - http://postimg.org/image/wjos552k1/
Depending on if the ship changes are individually or based on a formula for balancing it should be an easy fix since all the information is already there more or less. |
Zanarkand
99+ day(s) ago | So do we get rewards for all that research we did before the updates? A 2k barren sounds nice to me... :P |
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