ShatterdDreams
2011-10-13 |  | Upkeep Changes |  |
One of the most common concerns everyone seemed to be worried about was Upkeeps for some of the ships
Right now we are only Changing upkeep on some Terran Miner and Guard ships some of these changes may seem extreme. If it`s found that they the changes are detrimental/Overpowering to a ship or race they can be changed...and if anyone thinks a Maru Viral or Collective ship warrants our attention then post here and we will look into things. Scorpion and Kyro were purposely left off the list because they will be redesigned and their new upkeeps will be determined by the design.
You can feel free to ask why we increased or decreased some ships upkeeps but here are a few reasons
Upkeeps were increased if the BR of the ship was considered high for the quality of the ship. If the Ship is or can potentially be spam worthy it`s upkeep was increased to make it more expensive for those seeking to spam that ship.
Upkeeps were reduced if they a ship BR or stats were thought to be low for the current upkeep this is partially to encourage usage of the ship.
A lot of miner ships upkeeps were increased while terran ships upkeeps were lowered because a rich race like miner shouldn`t have upkeeps cheaper on avg than terran. We`ve also been toying with the idea of increasing all Miner ships mineral cost by 30% since they are miners (Depending on support/reaction we will decide on this option)
Here are the changes...
Background in green indicates an increase in up, A red background indicates a decrease in upkeep.
Terran
Miner
Guardian
Other Important links
Changes Updates and Contest Sticky
Final BR Changes
Design Contest with nice Prizes ^^
Current BR Changes Charts
Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2011-10-14 |
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Balzac
99+ day(s) ago | I think the upkeep for Tourm like the Ruby shouldn`t have changed ... |
DraconianParadise
99+ day(s) ago | i like pie |
grantweep
99+ day(s) ago | it`s like saying Queen/king should get more hull because it`s not fair that they don`t have enough...
/facepalm. |
grantweep
99+ day(s) ago | yeah kelti...do you not know how to play the game?
Thor and Zeus have 11/10 range. Like I said before, they are anti-destroyer ships...meaning they do best killing destroyers that have 8-9 range. Since they can outrange them and fire first.
They aren`t supposed to be ships that are able to take a beating a survive...Thor/Zeus are pretty much gauranteed a first shot + tons of dmg on virtually anything that`s not fez/herc/topaz/angel.
Whereas ships like calcite/chlorite....range 8/9. There is no first shot guarantee and chlorite is kinda weak when you consider this.
What can chlorite kill? borrs/cronus/sword? I can`t think of any other relavent ships.
What can thor kill? pretty much every single effing destroyer out there, and although not turn efficient...it also gets to fire first against miner SBs |
Apollo
99+ day(s) ago | ....why do all missle boats HAVE to be good vs missle? unless im blind. |
keltikelti
99+ day(s) ago | grantweep : are you kidding man.. look at my P.thor 1600 pr / 500 hull! anything that gets a shot at this will kill it immediately giving it no chance to suvive at all
P.zeus has 1000hull.. 1755 pr 1400 weapons.. and up till this decrease in upkeep no one would actually use it except some super rich empires
just take a look at miner missile ships and you`ll immediately notice that none of their ships thave the same shield mod %`s .
then look at the terran P.class and you`ll notice they are all identical showing that they were all just put together very quickly cause they infact were the first race created |
ShatterdDreams
99+ day(s) ago | Also no one has mentioned anything about Further increasing Miner mineral cost by 30% or so. |
grantweep
99+ day(s) ago | what you talking about kelti... I don`t see a huge different in shd mods, cept perhaps with +40 ECM calcite.
but keep this in mind: terran P class have 11/10 range. They are by defination, tremendously effective anti-destroyer ships.
miner M class....kinda sucked before these upkeep changes, and now they suck even more because they were cheap before. Now they aren`t. Just look at chlorite: 1200 PR/800 hull/1000 missle dmg. This is a very weak ship..there are only a handful of ships in the game that it`s useful against really.
I don`t want to come off as complaining. I`m not. Overall, I am fine with these changes...but I`m just really uncomfortable with the way staff is handling miners these days...by just jacking upkeep up on every ship. I think it`s important to remember that miner ships kinda sucked to begin with...the (relatively) cheaper cost + high BRs is what made them good...
Now GY isn`t updated with the new lictor, so I`m not really gonna comment on the updates as a whole just yet, until I get a chance to see what this new lictor is all about. |
ShatterdDreams
99+ day(s) ago | Schaijk if you are referring to the “Change” Column it`s merely a way to show the change in the Upkeep to PR ratio and it`s displayed as the Old Upkeep Percentage minus the New Upkeep Percentage
Sorry I didn`t make it clear.
Grant, Miner starbases are still fairly cheap in comparison to most new miner upkeeps. Miners deserve a higher upkeep across the board, and my personal feelings on the manner would be that all miner ships upkeeps should fall between 1.5-1.0 of the ships pr. But professionally I understand what such a hike could be devastating to all miners...though an established miner could afford such upkeeps
I`m not sure everyone would agree that Terran ships are so superior to Miner ships...sure terran has a lot of nice ships including the P class but miners are far from being able to defend themselves as they once were.. not to mention.
Miners have some advantages over Terran, the largest of course is Econ..
Another is G class...a class of ships that you know you could use against V. R. or H. class ships and know there`s 0% chance of that Viral or collective coming back to hit you with your own ships.
your argument for Thor and Zues I know their range makes them seem vastly superior to Calcite and Chlorite but both miner missile boats also lack No defense, which means they can potentially inflict more damage to targets lacking No retal. The hull to pr ratio on both these miner ships also gives them increased survivability over the Thor and Zues and as of right now the Calcite and Chlorite are both still cheaper that and P class.
As for Schooner and Bark being buffed, well Bark is missile damage only ship so I doubt the extra boost of it`s BR will make it be spammed any more or less than it already is..Schooners BR was buffed because it is a very under used ship, much like Guards Corun. Sure it can be effective but there are still better choices in the Collective shiplist. The upkeeps weren`t increased because in a way we`re trying to promote more use for the schooner by making it build faster and we feel that increasing it`s upkeep will continue to less use of the schooner...
As for Brig being expensive anything aside from fez with chemical damage can and usually will be a candidate for being spammed making it more expensive means it will cost more for the collective for using the ship...i mean it does have over a 1.0 hull to pr ratio and 1.0 damage to pr ratio with dual damage types and 100% capture... the only reason it`s not completely overpowered is due to partially to it`s range being 6, the upkeep and the fact that it`s dual damage combo is missile chem which means any fez can easily deal with it.
And finally I know Every thinks that the staff is always trying to deter spamming and incourage stacking which is a noble sentiment, but we`re not really doing these updates for that reason. If the side affect of a change does encourage stacking then kudos for everyone.
Spamming is just as valid of a tactic as any. We also know that trying to eliminate spamming all together is a wasted effort or else we could have started blacklisting spammers long ago and the game would be dead by now.
The fact is that the problem of spamming lies in the design of the battle system itself... the nature of battles system reward attacking spammers most of the time. It`s just a fact of the stephen math. There`s no way for the staff to change this if we could have it probably would have been done long ago.
And in all honesty even if stephen wanted to do something about it he couldn`t without having to completely rewrite the game.
Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2011-10-14 |
keltikelti
99+ day(s) ago | grantweep : how about we fix the P.class shield mod`s for terran idk how miner`s missile ships have better shield mod`s than Terran`s P.class |
Schaijk
99+ day(s) ago | you are using an odd way of displaying the changes. It is common practise to express change in percentages versus the old situation. |
grantweep
99+ day(s) ago | @SD: looking through everything again...why is chimera upkeep not changed?! Just looking at it`s new BR...this is a ship that looks very resilient, has a huge BR and yet is cheaper than miner SBs...if we`re gonna keep stuff like chim cheap, shouldn`t we keep bases cheap for all races? I don`t get the constant nerfing of miner bases. Yes I get that they had a legacy in the past as awesome UW ships...but that`s not even close to the case anymore...and with these new BRs...even less so. Some food for thought, I think. Do we really want UW fleets to consist mostly of fodder, and more fodder? Just seems boring to me.
Sib...I`d like to point out that most terran ships are actually a LOT better than miner ships stat-wise. Over the years, the biggest advantage that miners had over terrans was probably build rates...and cheap SBs.
I mean just compare ships like thor/zeus to calcite/chlorite....there really is no comparison. |
Sibiriangun
99+ day(s) ago | I like the upkeep changes very much SD! I never understood why terran ships has a higher upkeep to PR ratio than miner ships when miners are far richer. This seem to balance it out a bit more. Espeically calcite, lyth vs odin/zeus makes much more sense now. |
grantweep
99+ day(s) ago | we`re `allowed` to post in this one right?
Now that ships like schooner/bark are super buffed, whereas ships like gal and brig aren`t as buffed...shouldn`t the upkeeps be adjusted accordingly? (I`ve never really understood why brig was a lot more expensive than gal or most other coll ships either...
Also, adjusting the upkeeps for miner destroyers seems logical, but doesn`t it sort of discourage stacking? (most of the changes are actually pretty hefty - not that I`m neccesarily complaining or against these changes...just like to point out how they would affect my gameplay style) I like how Zeus upkeep is finally...normal now, kudos on finally making that change. |
