A.Miner Starbase Discussion

i would like to make a few points again

about miners being defensive, defense doesn`t mean rely on starbases, most of their ships are defensive in nature, even the lyth is defensive, angel is offensive, the lyth uses its vast defensive abilities to become it`s strength when it does become offensive. this is the case with most miner ships. starbases are meant to give you another option when in dp, to either base spam yes...which is supposed to risky and pointless unless you control the ranks, or to use them in dp to build to equal any surviving stacks to mess with the order for those who may have your stacks.

building bases outside of dp is one of the most successful uses for a starbase, it throws the enemy off and lures them into using other ships to counter capitals which they seem to imitate while building. if you look at all these points i`m 100% sure that base spamming was never an intended use of starbases in this game since this game was built with stacking in mind and I doubt spamming was ever intended, though spamming did come about and is a legitimate strategy.

Secondly, if you don`t control the ranks then your supposed to be at a disadvantage, that`s what the top 5 bonus is for to help those with control. It`s harder to control the ranks than it is to take them. Taking them takes one well planned operation, this is one of the features of having a fed, no one empire is intended to go up solo and conquer the ranks, of course it can happen (good for you) so you all pick a time to scurry up the ranks and topple the enemy. If you plan your times right you should be assaulting the ranks when the least amount of defenders are on.
Therefor you should have the advantage of numbers, which leaves them with the top 5 bonus, which is usually neutralized by offline people vmer or inactives. Those who assualt the ranks usually have the advantage of being able to build different fleet types as well. Where as those defending the ranks fleets are usually mostly known and haven`t changed much. Also if they control the ranks you should really start out building a fleet lower in pr to counter theres since you should know what they`re using, if they drop pr to hit you, then thats also pr you can add that you made an opponent to lose.

Again hoko and lakko`s BR and upkeep were never balanced, there`s no point in them having a .35% upkeep or lower unless they are completely usless since miners were designed to have the highest upkeep in the game, which by the story lines incompasses their signature ship, the starbase. This is the reasoning behind their incredibly large and diverse economy prospects almost all races revolve around a certain upkeep number I will try to lay it out in a simple form note these aren`t exact.

guardian ships avg upkeep to pr ratio is around a .11
Terran ships are around .8
collective ships .35
Miner ships .7
Marauder .3
Viral .5
fez .02
C class .8
F class .85

the better a ship is two things happen BR reduction and upkeep increase
the worse and less useful, the cheaper it becomes and more of it you can build

there are exceptions to this, like the fluorite which will be dealt with and is the reasoning behind looking at all the races and making tweaks

capital ships are a bit more difficult to reduce the BR so initial cost in cash and minerals are generally higher as well as upkeep. Also though people see capital ships as harder to kill the fact is, most if not all races now have an equally as fast or comparable answer to each capital ship, just like circle of life kind of thing...one thing nearly all capitals have in common is their weakness or low resistance to chemical, and all races have access to super cheap, fast building high chemical damage ships, that`s what fez was designed for.

Also capitals are meant to excel on careful on the same token against anything that out ranges them aggressive or even normal can become dangerous territory even from half pr. Thats why slower build ships exist because they have superior damage and range to dispatch larger ships, where in turn their hull and shields generally suffer.

The current miner starbases are more like cruisers in their construction. by design they are meant to be flawed vs capital ships on careful. But they are superior anything that excells on attacking on normal and aggressive, which means they were designed to be surprise ships in a stack to ambush any stack they went up against dealing a good bit of damage.

One of my personal favorite strategies I like using hoko and or lakko for is when there`s a aggressive little snot in the ranks pike borr spamming as example, you build up get hit by him and lose...well it`s always fun as a miner to jump out of dp and build a lakko hoko spam and go just past him and then proceed to stack..he in turn thinks you spammed up caps because of the huge pr jump and tops borr to cap rape you and hits aggressive, which uses your bases to their full potential wiping or nearly wiping his borr/pike/ plausable stacks under that because of his over confidence.

Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2010-08-24

Base spamming IS valid strategy... but not to the extent that miners are able to do... like I said, a g.diamond spam is defeatable from 1/100th PR... so it doesn`t really matter how fast you can spam if anyone has a counter on you...

And UW fleets should not be FAST to build, they are supposed to take time, ultra is the only server where you can half-arse a UW... any real server it takes a lot of time and effort to pull off, so I`m not sure how reducing the BR removes it as a UW ship... the ratio of damage/pr doesn`t change, so its the EXACT same ship, you just need more turns...

I`m thinking of two things in mind when it comes to SBs: normal use and UW use.

with these proposed changes, these bases suck for UWs...so okay, solved the problem of UW use.

However, these proposed changes also render the ship unusable for normal use aside from having it in your stack to kill queens on defensive mode.

Okay. If people don`t think base spamming is the intended use of SBs, then go ahead with the changes. Because I think base spamming is a valid strategy that has it`s adv and weaknesses...thus making it not overpowered.

I`m on the side of increase upkeep (mb not 3x) but keep BR the same.

I don`t really see your point then I guess. Are you trying to stop the nerf so that its easier to base spam on TB servers? Because I think that most people want to remove that.... Its not the intended use of the starbase o.o

arch: just cuz the bases still build fast doesn`t mean it`s better. try simming it if you don`t believe me.

Archeron: what you described happens on RT a lot, but much less so for TB servers because of the limited turns you receive in DP. The funny thing about SBs is that the turn for turn ratio is very variable. At low or equal turn:turn ratios...attacking cap ships are amazing against the bases. However at high turn:turn ratios (more turns of SBs) attacking cap ships tend to suffer badly.

Of course, you can usually base around 30 mil lakko (non-nerfed lakko) in a single day on ultra...and much less on fast/other TB servers. Stuff like that has happened on ultra before. Ask acraa about the time he based up to like 200 mil PR on ultra. However, all it takes is an empire with sufficient resources to be able to maintain a fleet around 40 mil PR to stop this stuff from happening (not too hard for a viral to maintain a pyth stack around this PR right? :P)

On this issue...I feel that RT and TB is very different: if you based up all the way to 300 mil PR in one day on RT, yes I agree that it would be very hard to stop this person (but not impossible, judging by how most SBers VM or get knocked down pretty fast)

On TB though...SBing will get you far less results, unless you VM build or something.

The math I was referring to is the raw data that BW posted, showing that miner starbases are still faster than most other ships after being nerfed

I know you`re adding more, but I`ll start my response now.

Firstly, thank you, that`s the post we are all looking for.

But let me say this. It seems that you think the only thing a starbase is good for is building a SUPER FLEET in DP so that when you exit dp you`re well away from harm`s way, and no one can defeat you from under...

That`s the definition of an overpowered ship. You`re NOT supposed to be able to do that while in DP... you build a few starbase to get your PR up, then build a spam or stack as you exit DP to balance it out and end up at a reasonable PR with a reasonable fleet to back the starbases...

Diamond can be killed from 1/100th PR by any guardian with K class as stack 1, does not matter what stack`s 2-10 are... cause diamond cannot kill a single K class...

Why should miner bases be so much better?

4) MATH shows that even after the nerf, all it does it bring them to a point where they are *slightly* better than every other ship

Show me the math on this please...because my math seems to suggest that even prior to these nerfs, lakkos were very possible to be dealt with by any race, except collective

5) Miners have LYTH and now its being considered to make it cheaper, miners have no room to complain >

I am against changing the LYTH because it will just make miners a more offensive race with what I consider the most versatile and offensive spamming ship in the game. Miners are supposed to be defensive. (from an RP point of view)

I have made a lot of points across many posts...the problem with making these changes is that they affect a huge area of gameplay. I could write a whole friggin paper on this if I wanted to..with all the assumptions and theories behind my reasonings, but I mean it`s just a game in the end.

Also, there are strategies for dealing with starbases...I guess people just haven`t figured them out but okay. Let`s discuss your points arch.

1) Miner bases build fast as guardians, even after being nerfed

BEFORE the nerf, virtually any guardian ship could kill the lakko on a turn for turn basis.
AFTER the nerf, it`s gonna be a joke...this is especially true because when one bases in DP...you basically announcing to the world that you have bases leaving you vunerable to attack and worst of all, you can`t even fight back since bases are defensive.

2) they are cheap enough to be spammed to the top 5 ranks easily by even the lowest income miner

yeap. and this is an area that I think will benefit feds in control of the server IF the starbases get nerfed. Doesn`t mean that the bases shouldn`t get nerfed...just means that the feds will have an easier time controlling the ranks due to less annoying SBers


3) they are ridiculously overpowered with their absurd range, they are quite literally the only useful starbases in the game. Chiron I guess being an *okay* sb, but still weak to most cap ships regardless...

Before these changes, Chiron was the 2nd best UW ship in the game. Now it is the best UW ship in the game. I can`t believe you would consider the chiron to be an `okay` ship.

In addition to UWs, Chiron can be incredibly useful as it has a decent build rate and is a great counter to missle ships. Don`t forget that it captures other ships too!
(to be continued)

nedflanders... I have been trying my hardest, but I have no idea what in the HELL you are talking about, or what points you may or may not be trying to make.

What in the world are you talking about? Please give a short, descriptive, defended response as to why these changes shouldn`t go through.

Preferably something that attacks the following reasons these changes SHOULD go through:

1) Miner bases build fast as guardians, even after being nerfed
2) they are cheap enough to be spammed to the top 5 ranks easily by even the lowest income miner
3) they are ridiculously overpowered with their absurd range, they are quite literally the only useful starbases in the game. Chiron I guess being an *okay* sb, but still weak to most cap ships regardless...
4) MATH shows that even after the nerf, all it does it bring them to a point where they are *slightly* better than every other ship
5) Miners have LYTH and now its being considered to make it cheaper, miners have no room to complain >_>

That was very much controlled, considering what I was really thinking that was about as polite as it gets... you should see me when I`m not controlled... my problem is that almost every post you have made has little to nothing to do with a solution for the problem, you are not hearing out other people or what they have to say... you are jumping to conclusions and quick to state what is on your mind, instead of trying to get to the bottom of what is really going on here.

A ton of people have a legitimate problem here, that they want to see resolved, and you`re just slowing down the progress, instead of helping it along in one way or another. That`s fine if you`re against the changes, state it plainly, why you are against, what you would like to see and why.
Your opinion will be considered along with everyone else.

You are important to us and we do value what you have to say, but after a certain period of time the value of what you say is dropping dramatically, if you continue at the rate you are going the value of your input will be nullified.

please control yourself HB, lol. I`m not flaming anyone, I am only being slightly frustrated at the arguments being presented. Your arguments make sense, but like I`m saying from the beginnin...these changes are elitist.

Ned, you are like a small child begging for attention, your input is not of the slightest value and yet you continue to throw it out there like someone should care. If you have any respect for this game, and the people who play it, you would just keep your trap shut once in a while. We have all tried to entertain your arguments and your opinions but I have had enough of them. The fact that you are not silenced is proof enough that my bias does not rule GC.

design any coll stack you want, and I will kill it using less turns than you did to build it without knowing the stack ^^

i did a UW with coll :P

it`s probably much easier to stack as a coll on RT

I will give you credit there. The one time I did ever fight a stacking coll on TB...(ultra). The coll had to use BTCs to keep up with my guardian build rates :P

Again, urdoinitrong... I`ve managed quite well for well over a year now doing virtually no spamming (at least until very recently)... learn what you are talking about before you spew about races you don`t know much about

lack of no retal ships. very bad build rate, and often you need to rely on fez/neutral ships because colls dont have 10 full unique ships of their own

yes they suck at staying lol

urdoinitrong ned

coll stacking sucks lol

worst race to stack with

Grad: I`ve done the calculations...you`d need something like a ship that builds at 60k PR per turn and has 1:1 ratio in missle dmg/PR to be able to take out lakkos at a .70 turn ratio