Nerf Miner Starbases

OP 22/08/2010 · 03:59 AM #1

Figured this has been mentioned enough to deserve it`s own thread and maybe we can get the the bottom of the problem once and for all.

Lately, every turn based uw and even some RT uw`s have been successful for pretty much one single reason, the miner starbases.

Firstly because they are very low in upkeep, even poorer races, that have kept a miner base from doing a UW can afford to build a huge spam of the base, as a relatively young empire on turn based servers.

Secondly, because they are considered, by most, "the ultimate uw ship." Not only because of the low upkeep but also because they hold up very well when in a large spam, better than any other ship for the most part; plus they build relatively quickly.

The fact that the miner bases have been used in so many uw`s, chosen over every other ship, is a huge sign that they are overpowered for the job. People should have to contemplate which ship\fleet to build for a uw... it should not just be a given that this particular ship is the only way to go.

As a result of this "ultimate uw ship," certain empires have chosen to uw as miner, they take the base with them and then can uw very easily as any race, doing this over and over again.

These bases have created a huge imbalance in the game, which is only getting worse over time. Something needs to be done to save the turn based servers and it needs to be done now.

I am not trying to complain here, just hoping to get an easy fix implemented in order to better the game play for everyone involved. Please no flaming, just suggestions and either, "I Agree," or "I Disagree," and "this is why," will do. Thank you.

M MajorDinero

22/08/2010 · 08:15 AM #43

some of us are just more efficient with our turns HB....

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 08:13 AM #42

I think that 166 days on ultra is pretty young. But I wasn`t necessarily referring to you at all when I said poor and young... looking at the uw list, there are many empires that were young, on turn based servers, that set off uw`s... and some of them were not very wealthy... what I was getting at was that with the lakko you don`t have to be very old\rich to be able to set off a uw.... even poorer races then miners have set off uw`s with lakko when they weren`t very old... if they can then they are way too cheap for the rich race of miner.

E EMC2

22/08/2010 · 08:10 AM #41

HB, I don`t play RT but I agree with your sentiments about VM building. I don`t like it, but I do understand that for some players it`s a tactic that they need to accomplish a goal...

E EMC2

22/08/2010 · 08:05 AM #40

HB said: "Increasing the upkeep is not going to hurt anyone except the people who base to uber pr`s every day... and those that build uw fleets with young\poor empires."

In my opinion, 166 days is pretty old in Ultra. I had close to max cash before the last boom...how many empires on Ultra can say that?...and me, poor? I`m still #3 on the rich list, after building a pretty big fleet, wiping the market a couple times, oh, and getting dinero`ed a bit. Anyone want to compare incomes? PM me.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 07:57 AM #39

I don`t at all hate uw`s... I have done several and defended quite a few... i just hate to see them so often on servers that are already dying out. And I hate to see a ship being used so often to do them... and a ship used that is cheap and quick to build, and a ship that is difficult for most races to take out when used at very high pr... and I hate to see people vm build... and base up every day on RT to ridiculous pr`s... it is not uw`s in particular I am against, I am against an unbalanced game and ships that take away from the balance of the game.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:53 AM #38

I`m not missing the point. I`m acknowledging my bias - I think that UWs are disproportionally difficult. It`s a bit more do-able as aminer(read: NOT EASY), but can border on near impossible for other races.

I`d rather see all races be able to do UWs well and be able to experience this part of the game.

You might want to acknowledge your bias - that you hate UWs and would rather them to be next to impossible to achieve. (totally understandable position...just gotta state it though)

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 07:45 AM #37

Ned you should consider changing your name to MissingThePoint

Yeah let`s change all the other races instead of just fixing the one problem... again the problem is not only the UW`s but the vm building and the spamming up every day on RT to ridiculous pr`s. And uw`s should not be made easier... they are suppose to be difficult and they should rely more on support rather then having a single ship that holds up well in UW type situations.

Nobody said that other races and ships can`t pull off a UW...just that the lakko is used too often for the reason that it is overpowered.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:42 AM #36

by the way, fuzzy has succesfully done two collective UWs. One on fast and one on ultra :P

no lakkos involved :)

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:39 AM #35

I like to see it more as: other races are unrightfully weak in the UW department, especially terrans.

Personally, if it was up to me...I`d try to make it easier for other races to UW. Yah yah I know, people will hate me for suggesting this...but it`s the fairest way in my opinion if every race had a more equal chance of UWing.

for the record, loof`s ultra UW was very fodder heavy, and I recall some other successful UWs being almost pure fodder before. Expecting someone to have lyth lead in a UW fleet is just madness.

This is actually the first time I`ve seen a non-fodder intensive UW.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 07:35 AM #34

Nobody is saying they`re invincible... just that they are overpowered and thus give an unfair advantage. If you and your mates are so good at doing UW`s, and the bases are not at all the deciding factor... then why do we only see UW`s that are base spams??

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:31 AM #33

I dont know. There is a huge bias that people seem to be ignoring.

And it`s that people who do successful UWs arguably know more about UW game mechanics than rest of the server playerbase. (not trying to be elitist it`s the truth)

And sometimes people who oppose UWs don`t really know how to stop it in the most effective way (trust me, this happens every UW and is just as much as a factor to my success...as bad as it sounds, `bad turn management` by the playerbase.

Just thought I`d like to point that out...If I know more about game mechanics than you and I`m constantly winning, then perhaps my success can be partially attributed to overpowered starbases. On the other hand, if the tables were reversed, I might know some things about the game to help me beat the OP starbases (they are not invincible people, believe it or not...there are weaknesses of having a pure SB UW that is possible to exploit)

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 07:17 AM #32

Particular examples of lakko uw`s almost failing, or even actually failing, is not proof that the ship is not overpowered. Nobody is saying that the ship alone can set off a UW... yes it takes more then having the lakko... but this does not mean the ships is not overpowered.

Concerning vm building, it is possible because of a combination between abusing VM and the low upkeep ship... one is easier to change then the other, so I say we start there.

Hopeless, very good point, that alone is a very, very strong indication, and pretty much alone serve the point that the ship needs to be nerfed.

H Hopeless

22/08/2010 · 07:14 AM #31

I think that the fact eevryone uses it along with the fact that most everyone that is sucessful carries it over when restarting, proves it is too good in UWs

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:05 AM #30

as for VM building bases, it`s a poor argument...because it`s the feature that is being abused, not SO much the low upkeep of bases.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 07:05 AM #29

look, everyone has their bias when making arguments.

When it comes to UWs you might have some sort of expectation of what`s acceptable for a UW ship and what`s not.

But being on the side of someone that`s done a UW a few times on TB servers and came pretty close to losing twice (see fast), I can tell you that with huge changes to the lakko, UWs will become unneccesarily difficult, and it is already exceedingly difficult (if it was easier, maybe more people would be UWing instead of the same guys).Is that what you would like to see?

remember, on fast I started off with 200 mil lakkos too...but the opposition was able to dominate me, even AFTER i spent 27 BTCs rebuilding my lakkos.

In the end there was a really good chance I would have lost that UW, but I won due to defender error...

as for poor/young empires.

EMC2 was on the ALL SERVER richlist prior to loof blowing up ultra. He is insanely rich and has an incredible empire to boot.

S ShatterdDreams

22/08/2010 · 06:52 AM #28

vm building gets you alot of places...you don`t use turns sure, you use turns to make money mostly if you don`t need the money you don`t need to use turns. sure that means that anyone trying to attack the vmer has alot of time to plan and make more cash, and they can actually "enjoy the game" but that also means more days having to deal with someone attack you while your trying to bring down said player...and honestly you never have to stop vm building...any empire with bases can vm build forever and they`ll eventually hit max pr, then they can just wait until conditions are right, which if you wait enough time, it`ll get that way soon enough...then you can commence with your UW or what have you.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 06:48 AM #27

Ned, you are getting carried away on a tangent here and totally missing the point. Increasing the upkeep is not going to hurt anyone except the people who base to uber pr`s every day... and those that build uw fleets with young\poor empires.

As for saying VM building on RT does not have it`s benefits effect things, this is wrong, it`s just not necessarily as beneficial as turn based... one benefit being that the vm builder can wait for their mates to take the ranks before they come out of vm and then have plenty of time to build a real fleet before the enemies can take back the ranks... things like that... but none of this is the point.

The main point is that the miner base is overpowered, which you even agreed to, it needs to be changed in one way or another for the sake of game balancing. The first change being the smallest, increase the upkeep, which won`t hurt anyone really, just make it more difficult to abuse... then we can discuss other changes... but if you`re going to argue in this thread please try to stick to the point.

BadWolf

22/08/2010 · 06:46 AM #26

Except we don`t want stephen near the ships *looks at Hyperspace Longboat*

H Hopeless

22/08/2010 · 06:43 AM #25

I remember a long time ago, Stephen used to keep track of which ships were over used..I.E. ships that were to good,,,he would then change them (nerf). I think this need to reinstated

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 06:37 AM #24

All I`m trying to say is that in NORMAL combat my opinion is that bases are just fine the way they are.

However, in UW situations...I agree, bases are pretty amazing (tho not at all unbeatable because BTC > all). But how can we balance these two aspects of the game without hurting either one?

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