Nerf Miner Starbases

OP 22/08/2010 · 03:59 AM #1

Figured this has been mentioned enough to deserve it`s own thread and maybe we can get the the bottom of the problem once and for all.

Lately, every turn based uw and even some RT uw`s have been successful for pretty much one single reason, the miner starbases.

Firstly because they are very low in upkeep, even poorer races, that have kept a miner base from doing a UW can afford to build a huge spam of the base, as a relatively young empire on turn based servers.

Secondly, because they are considered, by most, "the ultimate uw ship." Not only because of the low upkeep but also because they hold up very well when in a large spam, better than any other ship for the most part; plus they build relatively quickly.

The fact that the miner bases have been used in so many uw`s, chosen over every other ship, is a huge sign that they are overpowered for the job. People should have to contemplate which ship\fleet to build for a uw... it should not just be a given that this particular ship is the only way to go.

As a result of this "ultimate uw ship," certain empires have chosen to uw as miner, they take the base with them and then can uw very easily as any race, doing this over and over again.

These bases have created a huge imbalance in the game, which is only getting worse over time. Something needs to be done to save the turn based servers and it needs to be done now.

I am not trying to complain here, just hoping to get an easy fix implemented in order to better the game play for everyone involved. Please no flaming, just suggestions and either, "I Agree," or "I Disagree," and "this is why," will do. Thank you.

H HoneyBucket

22/08/2010 · 04:14 PM #83

Yeah Ned, I take back that statement, I am sure that everyone that has UW`d lately with a ton of Lakko has thought long and hard about it, and they have all chose the Lakko... why because it`s cheap and overpowered for the job, at least that would have to be my first guess.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 03:07 PM #82

by the way...I`d like to add that: almost all races (cept terran haha) have a ship that is really good for UWing.

I agree that UWing with SBs is overpowered for a miner, but I don`t think it`s so overpowered with another race such as viral/coll/maru.

Back when I UWed with coll/maru...I easily had the option of going bullhead/maru or snow/collective. (Both ships have been used successfully before and are both amazing UW ships)

I have to quote you here:
HB said:""People should have to contemplate which ship\fleet to build for a uw... it should not just be a given that this particular ship is the only way to go. ""

And I mean, dont get me wrong lakko is an amazing ship, but I did A LOT of thinking for my fast UWs. In the end...I decided against bullhead/snow because these ships were incredibly vunerable to guardians, whereas lakko is more the jack of all trades for UWs. ( For example, just try to to beat bullheads as a miner...there is not a single miner ship that is effective, but bullheads and snow just melt when they get hit by guard ships)

Just thought I`d put that out there...some food for thought, because I think a lot of people think miner SBs are OP because I did a maru/coll with them...but it was more a reflection of server dynamics. I was simply scared off by the guardians.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 02:57 PM #81

meh, before I got so huge...when I could only build to 18 mil PR without going into debt, I was able to put up a fight still with SBers like aacra/islander. anyways, i digress....

I`m not convinced that UWs are killing GC. There might need to be a seperate thread to talk about that, lol.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 02:39 PM #80

Ned you have a ton of land on ultra, most then probably any guardian on RT... so no guardians on RT even with max infra cannot begin to keep up following miners that base very day. The only race that can pretty much keep up is a tax viral with pyth... but my main concern is the UW situation, as it is really killing turn based servers which are nearly dead as is. Whether you want to believe it or not, the Lakko is creating large problems on all servers and needs to be nerfed.

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 02:30 PM #79

I am a guardian on ultra and I can fight comfortably around 50 mil PR. I don`t even have max infra yet and I don`t even have MAX LOYALTY on all my cols. 50 mil PR = like a day`s worth of bases on ultra (if you don`t sleep). Surely someone on RT can build to 100-200 mil daily without any effort one way or another (i know of at least 1 other viral empire that get to 200 mil easily with pyth)

it`s entirely possible to chase after basing miners on RT. annoying? yes. but not impossible.

Ever wonder why people base up and VM? maybe it`s because they know that if they don`t VM they will get destroyed. if you want to discuss about how miner bases are OP in UW situations then we can talk about that, but I haven`t heard a single good reason for why bases are OP in normal situations.

@HB: haha I almost never sim the tourm because it`s so slow that SSR outbuild it. I just picked some random guard ships and simmed them all versus lakko and found that all of them won on careful.

@omeg: yes it`s not a wipe a lot of the time, but what`s the guy with SB`s gonna do? attack you with his dummies? This is the beauty/balance of building bases...you can base up as much as you want, but you tend to get killed very easily because people know what you have! And if you are smart, you`d never hit someone basing up into DP without nearly wiping them anyways.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 01:43 PM #78

Grant, you also left out the Tourmaline, which I`m pretty sure is the most effect guardian ship to take out Lakkos... just a lot slower building then the others.

B backoff

22/08/2010 · 01:19 PM #77

grantweep, try to think about upkeep, quartz/topaz/flourite/agate/corrundrum/amethystlyth/nirv/herc/tyr....any of this ship can go to 100-200m pr everyday?(the upkeep, the $$ u spend,can u afford it?but well, miner can do it every single day)

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 01:07 PM #76

Oh yes I know grant... I have simmed every guardian ship there is against lakko... equal pr they can be taken out easily... the problem comes in when they are in mass quantity as you put it... such as uw`s... and when miners base up very high it gets terribly expensive for anyone else to keep up with them... and yes the goal is to modify the lakko so that it will still be effective down low and not nearly as effect at uber pr... if this is possible, I do not know..

O Omegian

22/08/2010 · 01:03 PM #75

Per Turn basis yes, but in most cases its not a wipe when it should be per turn basis. Also the fact being and argued is spam that for 16-23 hours your hitting from below or at 100% not 129% ... So that should also be taken into simming consideration grantweep.

G grantweep

22/08/2010 · 12:44 PM #74

read my post HB, try simming 100 turns of lakko against the ships I listed in `careful` stance. You`d be surprised how much lakko blow when you the turn ratio is even

G grantweep

22/08/2010 · 12:43 PM #73

quartz/topaz/flourite/agate/corrundrum/amethyst beats the lakko on a per turn basis

lyth for miner beats lakko on a per turn basis

nirv/herc/tyr ALL beat lakko on a per turn basis

of course these are PER TURN...these stats start being more in favor of the lakko the MORE lakko there actually are per turn compared to the ship you are attacking it with.

if you mess around with the stats on the lakko to make it weaker, you might end up with a total piece of crab starbase at regular PRs and something that could still be pretty good at higher PRs for UWs.

Something to keep in mind.

H HoneyBucket{HH}OP

22/08/2010 · 12:42 PM #72

I couldn`t agree more Omegian

O Omegian

22/08/2010 · 12:24 PM #71

Okay, two points.

Look at a lakko - there is not one guardian ship that can keep up with it on par except the quartz if i recall. The pyth for marauder, nirvana for terran, not aware of an aminer ship.

Honestly, i would tweak both range and its firepower to only 2 not 3 and change the modifiers around. I and a few others brought up this point long ago and we did increase the upkeep on the SBs if i recall. Kinda silly to just up them again when most tb aminers would be tax so money is still not an issue in most cases. In all honesty you would have to make them weaker to be less viable for a frontline defense and a spam defense if that.

Most UW successors who switch from aminer to other race choose lakko, reason being its OP on its defensive capabilities matched with herc or galleon and your in for a rude attack awakening.

All in all, i think the UW reward system is somewhat screwed up as well, but thats another debate.

D DarkZephyr

22/08/2010 · 10:39 AM #70

That was meant to say Highest income Not highest upkeep My bad.

D DarkZephyr

22/08/2010 · 10:38 AM #69

Actually you can`t change pyth without ruining maru usage of pyth just sayin` unless the admin found some new way of changing things for one race only

and the fact seems to be that miners have the highest upkeep in the game but the lowest upkeep starbases Hoko being nearly on par with queen and lakko being on par with maru ships So two suggestions i have

Nerf miner income down to match those standards and fit the rest of the ships to match, or simply fix the issues with the starbases. Being there upkeep i know it`s alot to take in but do try to understand (:

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 10:35 AM #68

lol, pyth is fine...as is starbases for normal combat...but you can`t change one without changing the other in my opinion.

there is a big difference between using starbases for combat and UW, that`s kinda been the central theme of all my posts.

D DarkZephyr

22/08/2010 · 10:28 AM #67

nedflanders makes a valid point i think we need to make pyth have some weaknesses from things in it`s build rate range such as tyr, lyth, angel, emerald, topaz, and so on (:

N nedflanders

22/08/2010 · 10:26 AM #66

thanks backoff for proving my point that bases are fine for normal combat situations.

nerf pyth instead

D DarkZephyr

22/08/2010 · 10:25 AM #65

haha seems like everyone needs to chill a bit and take a look at the whole picture

B backoff

22/08/2010 · 10:24 AM #64

yeah, coz i know u r bases spammer, so i use pyth to nerf u down...tell me, beside pyth, any others ship manage to climb 100m pr or 200,300,400m pr (due to the upkeep!) to hit down a base spammer?

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