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So, what is abuse?

Started by Deiloche · 23/02/2010 · 03:21 AM · 142 replies · 7 reads
D DeilocheOP
There has been a lot of controversy caused lately by MK`s use of the UW function. Much of this has been saying that this is abuse of the UW function. This brings up the question of what "is" abuse. Several things that COULD be argued as abuse:

A-Buying out the food market by going far over the limit and simply burning food
B-Buying out any market and burning resources
C-Buying out a market when resetting just to burn your credits and similarly impact the market
D-Hoarding/buying up minerals to prevent opposition from having the minerals to fight a UW, or fight at all
E-Buying a huge number of resources not because you need them but because you can and have nothing else to do
F-Holding on to a UW well past it`s natural expiry time and not due to inactivity


NONE of this is currently labeled abuse. Of them all, I consider A to be by far the worst, and yet it is the most acceptable. I guess not everybody plays tax empires that have to VM for six months of a paid because their empire cannot play, not because there isn`t enough agriculture production but because empires artificially inflate the market price to screw taxers. Specifically virals. :P

So, here`s the question: What do the masses think is abuse?

Notes from my end:
-For F, I hope to ask Stephen whether or not this is meant to be a part of the game. If it`s not, then we need to make publicly visible rules stating that it isn`t, adding constraints and potential fallout.
-I am working on a proposal to stop A entirely, and to limit E (which only affects RT).
-D is completely legitimate and frankly there`s absolutely no way to stop it.
-B is a set containing A, so my plans for A include B.
-C cannot really be stopped, though it would be faced with the same restrictions as B.
R Ragnarok
The way to avoid this is for staff to draft some kind of official statement on a sticky that evolves over time, and to which staff can refer new players to. Everything in the house rules will be included, but additional explanations and rules or interpretations will be added.
R Ragnarok
Indeed. For example, new players have no way of knowing that it is in fact illegal to kick a fed member in order to win c2s or c3s from him even if they are inactive. This is staff`s interpretation, which I respect, but the way staff interprets things is not intuitive to newer players and usually ends up in tears with an automatic, no warnings suspend with little or NO explanation whatsoever as to what they actually did wrong.
R RipVanWingnut
Totally agree rag. This DISCUSSION about abuse is enlightening.

p.s. who is this "big man" tribaltea?
R Ragnarok
Deiloche, I`ve been arguing for a sticky thread that explains in greater detail what is abuse and what isn`t since the "house rules" are no longer adequate.
T Tribaltea
@ everyone :)

Below Badwolf posted something

Examples of things which are not/can not be considered market transfers

* someone buys everyones food up to 50 then reposts the said food at 9 every single person who had food posted on the market up to 50 will have had their food bought thus made a profit which guardians for example often do buying food low and posting it high in hopes of it getting bought
* someone posts food far lower then the sell price giving anyone watching the market at the time an equal chance of buying said food

below that he posted more examples of whats illegal on market transfers they are NOT suggestions and not up for debate
P PistolPete
I see your argument BW, but i dont agree on it.

I can find 2 reasons why a player would want to buy out the market and repost back at a low lvl.
1: Buying out the market can feed not so rich persons with money (most lkely some of your own allies)
2: Buying out the market to get foodprices down for a friend that is taxer.

In both cases you are doing a thing, that has the consequence that a lot of your own money is transferred to another empire. I don`t see any good argument why this should be allowed as it makes market transferring way too easy for cheaters. I say that you make a rule that buying out the food market is ilegal. It is an easy rule to administer. The point of being a guardian and build a big empire isn`t there, if you can make a guardian that is solely supplied by money made on the foodmarket.

I don`t think It is necessesary to be allowed to buy out the market, but i think it is necessesary to be allowed to be online a lot. So the comparison isn`t good imo.
D DeilocheOP
My posts aren`t info, just topics for debate. I`m interested to see what people have to say before I do my proposals. That way, most of the arguing is out of the way and the ideas have flown BEFORE I start deciding what I want to propose. :P
E EvilLoof
Examples of things which are not/can not be considered market transfers


* someone buys everyones food up to 50 then reposts the said food at 9 every single person who had food posted on the market up to 50 will have had their food bought thus made a profit which guardians for example often do buying food low and posting it high in hopes of it getting bought

LOL how can you not consider that a transfer, thats the easiest way to do a cash transfer jeez.
BadWolf
@Pistolpete

Not if its asked for has to be for everyone equally.. lets have an example here


  • Person A posts food at 2 with no intent to market transfer at all and many random people buy and all profit
    equally we will say from this and repost it higher so they can make money.

  • Person B does the exact same except its a known agreement between 2 or more people with a set price and everything planned for unfair gain.


So you`ve got person`s A and B who are doing the exact same thing - so is it fair to punish both even though proof
exists for neither case, especially when it`s NOT against the rules in itself?

Or to put it like this:

Is botting ok to do because you may be able to get away with it? Is punishing someone for a high online time for botting
(6-10 hours per day we will say) without any sort of proof when its very possible they could have been there the whole time ok to do?

Is planet trading ok if you know how to do it without getting caught? And again is punishing someone for gaining 2
Cluster Level 3`s we will say okay to do when no proof of planet trading is there?

The answer to all of the above is no and I hope you all can see where I am coming from on this...

Edited by BadWolf on 2010-02-24
F Fubar
Just read through the thread. Good info game guides.
N nedflanders
I agree with PistolPete, I`m just concerned that a guard is buying food at all. I mean they don`t eat food so the only reason they are buying food LEGIT is because they want to play the market, which has HUGE risks - something that a rational guard would really think twice about doing since guards have very low capitol to begin with. I think that`s a very basic part of economics...the statistical chance of you having so little $$$ to start with and making so many successful market trades is really really low. We`re talking about guards doubling-tripling even, 10xing their cash reserves from playing the market. At some point you have to ask yourself what really is going on...

On the other hand, if a race that eats food like miners/virals gets involved with the food market I`d see it as much less suspicious, seeing as they actually need the food and might want to play with the market to ensure their survival, lol.
P PistolPete
hmm.. So let me get this straight BW. If a guard fills up his food store at regular food price around 8, and repost this at 40. Then he makes an agreement with rich food producer or mineral miner to buy out the market and repost the food at a low price, then it is legal as i understand what you say.

Another way to use this, would be to make your friend post food at 3-4 and then resell it at 8.

As i read your clarifying post this is legal, and a very attractive way earn a lot money as a guardian.
BadWolf
Ended as in you are given 4 days from the time of starting if you do not push the button in that time your UW will be ended as if you had failed yes..

Reason being UW`s should not be allowed to go on forever nor should they be limited its a compromise for both sides which is more then fair..
N nedflanders
F - In regards to this and the recent UW.. there will now be a maximum time enforced upon UWs.. if you do not activate the effects with in 96 hours of starting the Loktar project (after the 48 hours starts) then your UW will be ended. This is not up for debate nor does this require stephen

Ended as in failed UW, or there will be aforced pushing of the button? What would be the rationale behind this announcement - Your statement comes off as being very strong, I would just like to know why and how this new rule is the case.
BadWolf
right.. first off in regards to market transfers it must first be provable or obvious..

Examples of things which are not/can not be considered market transfers

  • someone buys everyones food up to 50 then reposts the said food at 9 every single person who had food posted on the market up to 50 will have had their food bought thus made a profit which guardians for example often do buying food low and posting it high in hopes of it getting bought
  • someone posts food far lower then the sell price giving anyone watching the market at the time an equal chance of buying said food

and i could go on and on the reason these cannot be considered market transfers is because there is no proof in any way of an on going market transfer.. to put it like this would you like to be suspended for doing nothing wrong ?

Example of an obvious market transfer

  • Person A sells 9,999,999 Terran Metal for $0 each
  • Person B buys and reposts the said terran metal at $1,000 each
  • Person A buys the said Terran metal at $1,000 each.. thus having completed the most obvious of market transfers


In regards to what the main topic was.. i haven`t had much time to think on much of this except one or two things..

  • E - I would like to see max mineral resources reduced from 2 Billion of each down to 200 Million of each of course this would require a fair bit of discussion with everyone then there`s other issue such as those who already have over 200 Million of each easy to see where the problem is with this i hope

  • F - In regards to this and the recent UW.. there will now be a maximum time enforced upon UWs.. if you do not activate the effects with in 96 hours of starting the Loktar project (after the 48 hours starts) then your UW will be ended. This is not up for debate nor does this require stephen</
S Startopia
i dont make the rules, this is how it had been explained. if you know the outcome of the trade that is transferring similar to battle arranging. you cant directly with good gesture give resources to other player (this isnt UC) and thats why they use the market to give. isnt giving means transferring?? of course who would price those goods at $0. even pricing at half where the market is dry thats a clear transferring. you can debate how abusive market play is.. but how about those player who are conveniently supplied with, esp on TB server were only few are online at the same time.

yup its out of topic, but i hope when you have the set of rulings on this questioned abuses.. please do enforce them =)
I ImaVirusOhNoz
selling CGs at 2 is still selling the good though it isnt really transfering form one perosn to another its seling at a decreased cost to another friend like a disox per say now if it were 0 for the CGs tis diffrent but i dont see cutting prices in half for a friend a transfer at all its just a nice gesture and they pay for it what they do with it is what they do with it :)
S Startopia
Market play is ok it has strategic values. but should be regulated (base on server) due to limited player pop (maybe by capping, limiting the amount a player can buy a day. etc)

Transferring resources is not ok its cheating, technically it bypass market play it`s equivalent to inside trading in rl. if two players agreeing to sell this item at any price are transferring.

as for F it has impact on competitive play, market, etc. i wanna hear Stephen decision too.

Arti are part of the game (digging takes turns too), it is equivalent to spell from other game were they can kill a player technically you cant die from arti here =) its like warrior vs mage. though regulating arti effect base on server is a good idea but also include tc.
B Bobbysindustrialpat
I see your point Scarlet, but it`s a war game and there have to be some ways to get hold of people`s clusters. However the historia aspect if different. If I know I`m being hunted, which has happened before, I`m more likely to buy a paid so I have a better chance to denfend myself. If I know I`m going to be historia into next month, I`m unlikely to buy a paid.

STCs can be a useful thing on RT to get an edge, but when a new empire can UW because the rest of his fed chuck a load of BTCs his way so he can fodder up in safety and make a bunch of cash at the same time, it makes them too powerful. I might like to do a uw someday, but not if it means spending my turns digging instead of fighting. Makes the game dull. Can`t get rid of them because of the empires that HAVE spent their turns digging, but for me it`s the same a clicking for research on RT. Thats why I don`t play that part of the game.
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