Updates and Changes

After thinking for a while, let me be blunt as in what we the staff are looking for, we don`t want or care what you think of the new lakko by looking at it. Nor do we care what your highly trained GC brain tells you about it based on it`s stats in relation with any server you play. We`re looking for one thing, battle reports, not sim reports.

So if you want to show us your opinion make sure it`s attached to at least 5 different battle reports involving the ship that directly supports your cause for it being to weak and useless or to overpowered. Feel free to list how many turns you invested into building it and what server the battle took place on as well or any other information you find relevant while building them

you can post your finding here, or you can pm them to badwolf or myself, or do all the above

Remember the people of this game voted for it. If you didn`t vote to bad for you, next time participate, if you didn`t vote for this particular change and you still don`t support it then come up with sufficient evidence/support to have it altered. This goes for any of the changes that have occurred with this past update.

You have a month.

Thank you ShatterdDreams & staff who made these updates possible. This should help A.miner more.

As for all those people who are complaining,
A.) you got your reasons to complain
B.) some of you are just havent even tested the ships
C.) some of you are selfish and like the older ships compared to the new ones for some odd reason that gives you as an individual an advantage instead of better good of the game or the race itself.

My personal believe is none of these updates hurt A.miner in anyway & the battle data has still yet to be seen on the real battle field, so go out there and test it all out before complaining here.

I think I detect a bit of frustration from grantweep, considering 1 UW ship just got considerably more expensive, and the other one became effectively useless for UW in terms of range and lyth-like expensiveness (at least as a primary UW ship anyways). xD

you had options, and the people on the game chose which options got implemented, i`m just posting the old facts so people can look at it for themselves, how many of you have actually tried it on TB? hmm how many of you have tried a mix spam of lakko and hoko in dp?

these changes are tentative, and can be subject to change, we don`t want hear say or opinions based on appearance, we want real battle feedback

Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2010-10-11

SD: listen to what feedback we`ve been giving you from day one.

this new lakko design is great for RT, but it`s just downright terrible for slower servers on TB

heck, it makes more sense to build lyth for defence, rather than these new lakko. *shrug*

Feedback? I`ll just repeat my old opinion that the new base seems pretty much useless to me on the server I play. I`ll most likely just see it get wiped pretty much by anything it matches to, save a small select number of ships

for those who`ve forgotten or weren`t around.

here i`ll post it again

ShatterdDreams
Game-Guide
46day(s) ago
Edit . Edmin
most guard ships can`t beat the new redesign, the reason the range is so low is so guards will have a better chance at beating it. the ship does fine vs anything that builds around the same br as it.

All test will be at equal pr unless other wise stated.

Aragonite vs Lakko Concept.

Careful 44.3% damage to arago, 34.8% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 61.7 % damage to arago, 61.1 % damage to lakko Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 37% damage to arago, 100% damage to Lakko out come, attacker wins

Flysch vs Lakko concept.

Careful 66.3 % damage to Flysch, 17.5% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Flysch, 27.8% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 100 % damage to Flysch, 38.4% damage to Lakko out come, defender wins

Lictor vs Lakko concept.

Careful 25.7 % damage to Lictor, 15% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 45.9% damage to Lictor, 26.9% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 73.6% damage to Lictor, 44.7% damage to Lakko out come, defender wins

Lyth vs Lakko concept.

Careful 39.3% damage to Lyth, 17.9% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 68.6% damage to Lyth, 30.9% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Lyth, 49.2% damage to Lakko out come, defender wins

Livid (r) vs Lakko concept.

Careful 29.7% damage to Livid (r), 39% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 37.8% damage to Livid (r), 70.7% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 21.6% damage to Livid (r), 100% damage to Lakko out come, Attacker wins


Sapphire vs Lakko concept.

Careful 38.8% damage to Sapphire, 57.3% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 27% damage to Sapphire, 100% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 0% damage to Sapphire, 100% damage to Lakko out come, Attacker wins


Hercules vs Lakko concept.

Careful 33.7% damage to Hercules, 32% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 49 % damage to Hercules, 57% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 34.2% damage to Hercules, 100% damage to Lakko out come, Attacker wins

Nirvana vs Lakko concept.

Careful 40.1% damage to Nirvana, 40% damage to Lakko Out come, defender wins
Normal 50% damage to Nirvana, 71.4% damage to Lakko Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 24.5 damage to Nirvana, 100% damage to Lakko out come, Attacker wins

Tyr vs Lakko concept.

Careful 56.9% damage to Tyr, 28.1% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Normal 88.8% damage to Tyr, 47.3% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 89.1% damage to Tyr, 80.8% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Empereur vs Lakko concept.

Careful 45.9% damage to Empereur , 24.8% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Normal 74.3% damage to Empereur , 42.6% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 90.3% damage to Empereur, 70.8% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Angel vs Lakko concept.

Careful 43.1% damage to Angel, 50.6% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 37.5% damage to Angel, 92.5% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 0% damage to Angel, 100% damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins


Pyth vs Lakko concept.

Careful 100% damage to Pyth , 39.1% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Normal 100% damage to Pyth , 54.8% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Pyth, 100% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Bullhead vs Lakko concept.

Careful 43.7% damage to Bullhead , 18.1% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Normal 76.2% damage to Bullhead , 30.9% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Bullhead, 48.4% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Hammerhead vs Lakko concept.

Careful 38.9 % damage to Hammerhead , 63% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 24.4% damage to Hammerhead, 100% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 0% damage to Hammerhead, 100 % damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins

Thresher vs Lakko concept.

Careful 100 % damage to Thresher , 25.1% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100% damage to Thresher, 35.5% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 100 % damage to Thresher, 62.4 % damage to Lakko. out come, defender wins
Agate vs Lakko concept.

Careful 29.5 % damage to Agate , 37.2% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 39% damage to Agate, 67.3% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 23.9% damage to Agate, 100 % damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins

Amethyst vs Lakko concept.

Careful 77.6% damage to Amethyst , 35.8% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100% damage to Amethyst, 55.5% damage to Lakko. Out come, defender wins
Aggressive 100 % damage to Amethyst, 84.6 % damage to Lakko. out come, defender wins

Corundum vs Lakko concept.

Careful 100 % damage to Corundum , 24.7% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100% damage to Corundum , 33.6% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Corundum , 61.9% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Quartz vs Lakko concept.

Careful 41.2 % damage to Quartz , 36.6% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 63.1% damage to Quartz, 63.2% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 64.6% damage to Quartz, 100 % damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins


Fluorite vs Lakko concept.

Careful 46.8% damage to Fluorite, 12.4% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 91.6% damage to Fluorite, 14.7% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Fluorite, 10.7% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Hun-Li vs Lakko concept.

Careful 62.4% damage to Hun-Li , 28% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Hun-Li , 44.9% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Hun-Li , 63.9% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Hun-Xe vs Lakko concept.

Careful 62.1% damage to Hun-Xe, 14.2% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Hun-Xe, 22.5% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Hun-Xe, 29.4% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Hun-Zen vs Lakko concept.

Careful 65.8% damage to Hun-Zen, 21.6% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Hun-Zen, 33.9% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Hun-Zen, 45.8% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Emerald vs Lakko concept.

Careful 100% damage to Emerald , 19.8% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Emerald , 27.3% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Emerald , 50.4% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Garnet vs Lakko concept.

Careful 56.9% damage to Garnet, 16.7% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 100 % damage to Garnet, 27.3% damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 100% damage to Garnet, 39.2% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins

Topaz vs Lakko concept.

Careful 16.3% damage to Topaz, 12.4% % damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Normal 29.7 % damage to Topaz, 22.8 % damage to Lakko. Out come, Defender wins
Aggressive 49.4% damage to Topaz, 39.3% damage to Lakko. out come, Defender wins


Ruby vs Lakko concept.

Careful 18.3% damage to Ruby, 100% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 0 % damage to Ruby, 100% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 0% damage to Ruby, 100% damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins

Tourmaline vs Lakko concept.

Careful 10.4% damage to Tourmaline, 100% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Normal 0 % damage to Tourmaline, 100% damage to Lakko. Out come, Attacker wins
Aggressive 0% damage to Tourmaline, 100% damage to Lakko. out come, Attacker wins


so out of 84 battles the lakko lost 28 battles....which means it lost 33.33% of the time while winning 66.66% of the time. and it forced people to attack on aggressive most of the time to do well against it

now just against guards 13 ships of which only 4 could beat it avg though 11 wins in 39 battles
so guards beat it 28% of the time..

yes indeed this ship blows worse than the current lakko, and the range matters oh so much because it can`t possibly do anything with such a low range. i would much rather have old old lakko with 15 range and .02 weapons to pr ratio than this new current lakko, why oh why god do the staff keep giving us lame choices. now just imagine what it can do as a flanker in a stack, or what it can do as a hoko lakko spam?

and people stop pls stop thinking of what a miner ship should look like...no race has a definative design, what matters most is the balance of the ships and if it balance with it`s race and other ships.

Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2010-08-26

also remember this ship is supposed to be used in conjunction with the hoko, one excels on aggressive and one on careful, each plays off the others weaknesses

Edited by ShatterdDreams on 2010-10-11

lemme sum up what rag is saying:

aminer are now offensive, NOT defensive race, don`t even bother building bases anymore. just lyth spam.

for the record, I don`t think the original MoW ever had such huge and obvious weaknesses to kin/chem...I believe that`s why no miner ship could take on MoW because of the insane jacked up resistances to energy/kin shds.

ships that kill new lakko: nirv, tyr, pretty much any guard ship and pretty much anything that has more than 4 range and does some kin dmg

don`t get me wrong, it`s not a terrible ship for stacking...which means it`s a ship only RT users would be privileged to use.

i totally agree with ragnarok on the point that this new update has made lakko a ship worth stacking with. :D

Guys, you think the new Lakko will suck, but consider how overpowered the original and v2 of collective MOW was before we ended up with the current version of that ship. Or for that matter the brig when it was range 5 with no retal. People thought both ships would suck, but the MOW spam proved almost unbeatable, and the brig spam was an effective counter vs all the cap ship spamming that went on.

Don`t discount the base just on the range.

As for the shields, they may seem a bit daunting but consider what they really mean. Chem weakness looks intimidating, but is meaningless if they don`t go up against strafez (which is a risky strategy against miner anyways unless you know what they have). And while the weakness to kinetic is high, it`s balanced out against energy and ECM positive, which means it`ll do fine against ships that have 2-3 energy weapon types like cap ships.

Also, even if the Lakko proves to be a net loss to miners, the decrease to lyth cost and other ship costs will more than make up for it.

Personally, I never really used the Lakko for real stacking purposes, but as a fairly good way to raise PR cheaply. Now at least it`ll find a place in my stacks and make me rely even less on destroyer class ships for defense.

Great job BW about time this has happened :D... now for that other pet project >.>

yeah, 3 range is terrible.

the whole point of a defensive ship is to fire first, because defender lacks initiative..it`s the attacker doing the hitting, they get to control attack stance. that`s why the old bases were good and made sense...10 range. Now these bases might be alright on RT, but they are pretty much useless on TB because of their buildrate and cost

Once again the interests of RT > those of TB

Well, " Sacrifice " a base for upkeep change...I would go for it everyday o.o

haha grantweep, i dunno, personnally i like the idea of a high weapons to pr ratio miner ship :D although yes, 3 range really does make it rather... crummy, haha.

i think overall yea, miners have been nerfed. oh the humanity. =x

miners are now the new viral...and these new bases suck, it`s called a nerf people :P

Lyth got it`s upkeep cut. :( Other than that I am very pleased with the changes. I think the game is much better balanced now over all so thank you very much for your hard work.

yar, thx bw for you time and all others working on the ships...

one good reason why a miner should build it? i agree both with khamon and req but only cuz i havent tried the ship yet in battle but it does seem like its fragile and its expansive. the price of a kryo in upkeep that builds half the speed... hmm

i agree with khamon on the part about admins giving time. on a personal note, i am really grateful that you`re taking ur time to improve the game BW, judos! :D

but i disagree on that this new lakko design will encourage spamming. instead, i rather think that yes, range 3 and fatal weaknessed make it rather fragile, but its weapons is by far the best of any aminer ship, plus the fact it has no retal, if used properly in a balanced stack, i feel it can really wreck havoc. In short, its an entirely new ship, with altogether new purposes. the old lakko was yes useful, but way less versatile.

I appreciate an admin that gives his time for updates, thx BW but I think lakko is gona get slaughtered, if a balanced stack hits lakko weather in a spam of full stack its game over for lakko, its only going to be affective in a 2 stack defence spam which will have miners leaning towards spamming instead of making them balanced in a defensive manner.

Range 3? With a fatal weakness in two areas? I would have leaned towards less offensive and more hull with a balanced weakness that will allow it to survive the first wave as well as multiple flanks.

Thx BW Cause the last time I played this game we didn`t have an admin advocating for ship improvements like this.

oh bummer actually.. now it feels like a lyth.. i kinda liked the energy kinetic combo haha. made it interesting, more variety.