Updates and Changes

Orinos:

The 3 ship you list at the bottom, all will die horribly to k.class Especially on aggro. And they need more turns to build to even scratch the the flourite. If it was only the fluorite alone it would not be a problem.
Yes the herc can kill l.class but its s dang lottery to hit it.
Also the fluorites main strength is actually on the offense. A fluorite spam will not loose to stacked fleets on careful. Good change it wont loose on normal either and prolly not against other spams as well. And the worst thing is that it wont dp you either on the first go making it easy to adjust the rest of the fleet for 2nd hit.

My guess is you will actually start seeing more guards on turn based unless people are to scared to switch cause it obvious that the guards are going to get nerfed.

The fact that it takes longer to set up a guard empire isnt a valid argument. it takes time just like any other race (collective being even harder) It takes just as long to research 101 levels as a terran as it does as a guard and the 2 c2s to explore also takes just as long.
With the new upkeep changes even virals are harder, but again doesnt matter how long it takes.
You have to assume that people will reach high infra levels.

I know on turnbase, turn is everything. however, do think in all aspect.. guard have good buildrate all along.. also guard have 2 K class (immunity) before the update. plus before the update, guard have ruby tom quatz which have high buildrate and strong.

but if buildrate is a problem, why don`t all ppl or most ppl become guard on turnbase? Should collective complain about other race?

clearly there is disadvantage of being guard in turnbase even if they have high buildrate.
I have not being guard on turnbase before, but from my experient in rt, setting up a guard empire must be tough on turnbase.
Guard extremely low income make them needing to spend alot of turn setting up empire and also using lot of turn to earn money. Unless you are a well-established guard with a really old empire when the housing research is high, no guard on turnbase should be able to climb and stay high. Yes, they have high buildrate, so they spend less turn building and more turn earning money. whereas the other race could spend less turn earning money and put more turn building up.

Back to the immunity ship that guard have. before the update, almost all guard ship including the 2kclass high immunity ship is weak against missile. After the updates, only 2 high immunity to missile is introduce. And another K class added in is still weak against missile. So now guard general is still weak to missile but have the ship to defend against missile now.

I agree that K class can kill herc, L class will kill tyr. so when guardian spam K class and L class, and you spam herc and tyr, chance are you will wiped yourself. However in another view, herc will kill L class, tyr will kill K class.. In addition herc is not really useless, in fact herc is good against L class tom ruby quatz agate.

as for florite being almost invisible,
Terran: Nirvana
Miner: Lictor
Marauder: pyth
All the above are big ship which will works against florite

florite/topaz/kclass can be beaten by nirv/herc/tyr

I agree completely with Africa. On the turnbased servers guards a simply too powerful with the current ship setup. Being limited by your amount of turns screws all arguments about building long range cruisers, its simply not possible since their buildrates are 1/3 - 1/7 of the guard ships. Maybe RT is fine, but hopefully we can find a solution that works on all servers.

For instance, before the ship update guards on fast spammed corundum all the time. The ship was redone, and is imo still an awesome ship that would be used by all other races if they had the chance, but now I almost never see it used as anything but a dummy stack since fluorite/topaz/k.class spams are so insanely effecient. To me this means there still some work to be done balancing the ships.

squakes, i doubt you play any TB server. Turns are the most valued resource there..which you clearly dont understand

lyth/tyr own any guard ship btw except for the topaz due high hull and resist to missile,the only way we can beat herc is with k class or the flourite, and we don`t really have 3 awsome k class since the Xe is junk, but if your problem is turns then have guards have low build rates and high range like everyone else. But guard ships are not gods vs every single ship they face, to win a battle you just need to match up well vs guards and coll and maru shouldn`t have any probs with fighting guards due to thier high range ships even with low br

First of, virals has 2 missile boats (lyth, tyr) (terrans only one, miner only 1 ) that can even beginn to compete with guard build rate (thanks for taking away angel btw) and both will fail horrybly at even pr and especially at equal build rate against fluorite and l.class.
Thor, zeus, chlorite etc are next to wortless when attacking as build rate is ridicoulous. I can only imagine the pain collectives and marus have.

The mighty herc is reduced to a dang bystander. The best kinetic ship available takes a 3:1 turn ratio to win against fluorite on aggro (looses on all other stances). It gets owned when hitting k.class.

Secondly, 3 ships with immunity is making attacking guards a dam lottery. I can only hope that I dont hit those 3 with any of the ships that isnt missile and since thats likely going to be 6-7 out of 10 stacks (and since I am attacking on aggressive) the chances are not good and the relatively low damage of k.class is negated by the 2x modifier.

Add to that the tourm, the still more than decent ruby, cor etc etc etc

Point is when attacking a guard, being a viral, terran or whatever, you can be stacked as hell, and no way are you going to wipe a guard, let alone cause him to loose the same amount of turns as you will. Thats the problem, right there. It about turns which is why rt people cant see the problem

Lyth and lictor suck compared to fluorite. End of story.

Suggestions: Remove the Zen (or change it completely, 3 immunity ships are 1 to many)
Nerf flourite, reduce damage to 10k and make it higly succeptible to chemical so at least straf can kill it. Caps have always melted to chemical and its beyond me why this xer wont die to it.
Dont make me pull out my old rt empire and spam all of you to hell to prove my point


There, thats all the morning rant I can muster today. Played this game a long time and never have it been so screwed up imo. Its fixable tho. Just gotta do it before stephen pisses of maraudian again. rof

I only agree to the change of tom.

As for the other points, it do not agree. Florite is the most powerful ship in the game? what about lyth and lictor? Having great hull does not make a ship powerful when it have low range and low firepower..

Ya it really has become a crab game with these recent changes to guards. Sorry to those who made the changes - i know you meant it in a good way. But everything Africa says is the reality that i have experienced.

I guess the new way to survive at turnbased will be to dig arties, make BTCs, and feed them on a friendly guardian empire. How much fun is that?

africa first off you do realize that the guards range makes up for whatever resists they might have since there are so many ships that outrange us and if hit on agressive we never get to hit back given you will wipe us. Also only the k class are very high in energy/kin resists and they are easily taken out by missile/chem ships due to they have 6 range max. Sure the L class are really good vs missile damage ships but unless they actually fight against a missile ship they are going to get beat badly, the flourite is a good ship but you must also not is has only 4 range and are very weak vs kin ships so if that gets hit by a kin ship or anything else with a pure 1 type of attack with higher than 4 range on agressive it will easily get wiped. You make it sound like guards are super powerful but in reality you just need to know how to fight them and it can be really easy by outranging them and hitting on agressive

Ok, since the guard thread has effectively died out Im gonna take it here.

The recent guard changes are crazy. Now, Im not sure if anyone remains who can change them, but something need to happen.

3 ships with energy/kinetic immunity
Flourite which is _by far_ the most powerful ship in the game
Tourmaline which is still AWESOME
L class with near missile immunity

Add to that the highest build rate in GC, good acces to all types of damage, and a remaining shiplist which is more than decent compared to other races.

My problem is that to hit a guard you have to be lucky to get a win. You need _perfect_ match ups which is nearly impossible with so many high resists. To attack with a guard, just spam flourite, k and l classe and get at least 2 cols.

I know you guys wanted to make GC better and maybe the recent changes were not your ideas, but ímo gc is worse than ever. And yes, this is all because of a few guardian accounts (who I btw do NOT blame for using the ships they do)

So if Maraudian was the only one with acces to the codes and his leaving means that were f``ucked then...well thats just awesome.

Is it possible for the next update (assuming there is one) to make the r. pinnace (or one of the coll ships) cost 0 minerals to build? Coll can`t make anything other than TM at the beginning of the game, and there are no coll/neutral ships that only require TM... which makes it insanely difficult to do anything at the beginning of the game as coll, since you have no income off of one planet and the market is always dead for minerals... plz do that lol.

I thought so too Archaeoptyrex.

So Miner SB upkeep has increased -- was there going to be a slight decrease in lyth/livid upkeep?

Haven`t forgotten about it. Mara decided the guard updates didn`t make them awesome enough. If you have complaints about guards being too good now, complain to him. The rest of us absolve ourselves of the responsibility. :P

Yay for redoing the schooner... got that ship blew the way it was :P. I like that GC isn`t totally ignored :D.

o.0 T Maru actually has a build rate better than Garuda now.....325 per turn!!! For a per pr build rate of 16,575 per turn

T.Sentouki now has range 7, 8700 pr build rate, and at 28 energy and 28 kinetic. Not a bad build rate compared to larger ship classes.

Im just wondering if you have forgotten about the tourm nerf? There was a rather large nerf suggested at some point but I havent seen anything in some time now.

the build rate on the maru ships are posted are pretty pathetic (unless I got my multiplication wrong) ... although the attack:pr of the manta is rather good

ah im glad the chimera been reworked

note is there someplace to see the difference bewteen the two Tclass ships from that of before?