Updates and Changes

i believe stacking and spaming are preferences, in a army in real life, did the romans spam Short sword men and Archers or did they have a mix, True that spamming is cheap but its a preference that a gc`er took in one point in thier gc career.

with the new snow, theres no real need for anything else for the collective

Capital ship for collectives plz :)

grantweep, sorry, for some reason I was looking at the pr/turn of the livids as opposed to the pr of the individual livid *smacks forehead* nevermind me.

Yeah...these changes are meant to make guards more balanced on TB servers.

I guess i`m just biased since i play guard on RT anf ultra cause on RT if you spam either of those you`ll just get wiped due to range and the fact that i don`t see them spammed much really

yes, that`s the idea....we want to discourage spamming don`t we?

guards are still very kickass with their high build rates...but these changes will force them to stack. That`s sorta the whole point of what Urban is suggesting. I think the general sentiment is that flourite/quartz spamming is too powerful. Unless you are suggesting that guards should be allowed to have an unstoppable spam ship as part of their `special ability`, because I certainly don`t think so :P

"it will be much easier for miners/terrans/maru to kill guard ships on a TURN for TURN basis." wouldn`t that take away the special feature of guards being able to build more ships for less turns

Squaks, did you even understand what UrbanSprawl posted? Quartz is an amazing ship...even against missile boats like lyth and tyr, which are weak to kinetic dmg....

I think Urban has some good ideas...simply decreasing build rate for guardians is NOT an option imo, because guardians need to be good for fighting UWs. Decreasing fluorite build rate to 35k just as a quick fix is laughable because it takes away a bit part of what makes guardians special - their ability to dominate UWs, and I can`t stress this enough.

The problem here is that with spamming, flourite/quartz are both ships just take more TURNS to kill simply because they build so fast.

With the changes UrbanSprawl is suggesting...it will be much easier for miners/terrans/maru to kill guard ships on a TURN for TURN basis. So any guardian that is spamming flourite/quartz will easily be taken down by someone using the same amount of TURNS, which isnt always possible right now.

Obviously more testing needs to be done with the new quartz and flourite in stacks, but I in terms of the spamming problem...these suggested changes is a very big step towards solving them.

I honestly don`t see the point in making a guard ship even more weak against missile ships, right now very few on them can go against the anti guard ships so making a g class ship weaker vs missiles is overkill. the problem isn`t with killing the ships its the br for the fluorite, I don`t think the quartz is even remotely overpowered but the fluorite could be scaled down a bit

This thread`s caught my attention a bit as of late. I see a few issues here:

1) Fluorite`s too overpowered
2) Quartz looks like almost a twin of Fluorite, it`s overpowered too
3) Fluorite and Quartz are key ships against UWs, so their firepower should not be compromised
4) Changes to the ships should not make them obsolete, given the rest of the guardian ships.

To resolve this, I suggest re-working the hull and shields, while leaving the weapons consistent with slight reductions to PR (maybe scanner should be increased if ratios are too unbalanced). I`ve done a bit of simming (mostly 1v1 ship using equal turns on both sides), and designs like this seem to be promising:

G.Quartz:
K: 14,000
Hull: 80,000 > 70,000
R: 5
Scanner: 3,500
Upkeep: 4,596
PR: 36,068 > 34,317
BR: 2
ES: 99
KS: -10 > 0
MS: -20 > -50
CS: -20 > -50

Stats: 0.41 attack/PR, 2.04 hull/PR, 68,634 PR/turn


G.Fluorite
E: 30,000
Hull: 160,000 > 130,000
R: 3
Scanner: 1,500
Upkeep: 7,500
PR: 69,768 > 63,013
BR: 1
ES: 30 > 0
KS: -50 > -60
MS: 20 > 60
CS: -10 > -50

Stats: 0.48 attack/PR, 2.06 hull/PR, 63,013 PR/turn


I tried to make the K and M shields of these ships complement each other. The result is that the Hercules, Lyth, and Angel do well against the Quartz, while the Nirvana, Aragonite, and Pyth do well against the Flourite. I think there should be further testing done to see how these designs perform against stacks.

Thoughts?

the increase range does very little i just thought 4 would be nice, but i`d me more than happy to take it back down to 3 for you, and people where whining about it`s BR being to fast and being to troublesome for people to beat on TB which i can see. so it`s either that or a complete re-balancing which i can do.

Fluorite is supposed to be a big hulled ship and with that large hull comes more neutralized shield mods. if we make the shield mods more extreme then the hull will have to fall. i mean i can find a more happy medium for it`s shield weapons and pr if you that`s what everyone really wants. i`d be more than happy to redesign all guard ships again and the whole concept behind what guardian is if you want me too.

Gradualincline:

You are quite wrong actually...livids own flourite hard even at low PR

This is attacking from -130 with livids to ONE flourite:

PR losses
Attacker 0 = 0%
Defender 69768 = 100% DP


*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 3


Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
G.Livid (r) Fighter 7 0 7
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
G.Fluorite Cruiser 1 1 0

Livids own Fluorite? only at higher prs. At low prs (1 built) you can`t even build enough livids to defeat 1 fluorite before you`re out of attack range. and that`s with the proposed changes, without them, you might as well twiddle your thumbs, it`s about as effective. I mean, I could be wrong, it`s early, and I didn`t even bother looking up the manual for stats, so I`m just guessing, but that`s the way it looks to me.

Why decrease buildrate and decrease hull:PR ratio? I don`t see what a change from range 3>4 does...livids still own flourite, range 3 or 4. I guess it will fare slighty better to tourm/pinnace on defence but I would much rather have the higher build rate.

if anything, I`d like to see a larger reduction to chem shds, and a boost to missle shds for the flourite, with an accompanied loss in hull - say make the hull PR ratio like 1.6-1.7 or something. This should encourage stacking a lot more stacking for guards.

But with these changes, noone`s gonna touch the flourite...hell ameythst builds faster now.

Looks like quartz is now the new uber spam ship of choice. You guys will need to lower the BR on that as well. Then Hunli will be the next spam, then conundrum, then guards won`t have any fast building ships over 50k BR cuz they are all `spam` ships :P

does the rank increase from 3-4 even do anythingh accept add a number to its stats, but it does look pretty good but the br seems slowly than the other big guard class ships

proposed design by the staff.

G.Fluorite
E: 30,000 > 15,000
Hull: 160,000 > 70,000
R: 3 > 4
Scanner: 1,500 > 1,300
Upkeep: 7,500 > 3,670
PR: 69,768 > 35,118
BR: 1
ES: 30
KS: -50
MS: 20
CS: -10

The garuda says weird c.rap like that too, I just noticed that today heh.