Income Adjustments Discussion

D DeilocheOP

OP 15/07/2009 · 11:31 AM #1

NOTE: This may not happen. We still need to get Paid Staff or Stephen to implement these, as well as get the itech to work temporarily so that races may change their infra. However, we would like to do this.

Contributors: EphemeralEternity, BrokenSwordS, Deiloche, Raistlin, Omegian

MARKET LIMITS
250 minimum on all minerals
3 minimum on goods
5 maximum on goods
4 minimum on food
2500 minimum on ore
1 minimum on raw material

Viral
-Commerce modifier dropped to -95%
-Infected clusters given the ability to use industry and agriculture
-Agriculture yield on infected clusters similar to that of c.4s.
-Giving the industry modifier to the virals a number sufficient such that at 4 per unit a CG viral would make more income than an agriculture viral would make at a decent level of 9 or 10. Exact numbers not worked out yet.

With those stats that would make tax and agriculture equal in income around 13 per unit of food with industry a little behind if food were at that price. Agriculture tends to fluctuate up and down, but a fairly standard `steady` level is 9 or 10, because most taxers appreciate that type and will buy at that level, hence why the industrial mod is going to be aimed to match at that level. Industry tends to be more stable, and given that a lot of virals will be going tax and agri there should be an even higher demand for goods.

Marauder
Plunder bonus: +400% > +900%

The increase in plunder bonus there will effectively double how much plunder marauders make. This will dramatically improve their ability to play with the new ship upkeeps.

Collective
Plunder bonus: +200 > +300%
Tax mod: -50% > -10%
Goods demand: -95% > -50%

Note: Collectives would NOT have their infected clusters able to make agri. A good collective would probably do both tax and agri, with c.4s making agri and c3s doing tax.

A.Miner
Industry Efficiency: +200% > +350%

Effective 50% increase for industry for a.miners.

Terran
Industry Efficiency: 0% > 50%
Terran n00b can do all incomes.

Edited by BrokenSwordS on 2009-07-15

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 09:25 PM #28

Arch: Yes, virals would make more. Given we`ve taken away angels and we`re heavily increasing marauder upkeeps such as the pyth, I don`t think it`s a problem. If this is done, itech will be used. Which is a problem given it`s locked. And definitely no on removing the population PR thing. Tax is always the highest income, it comes at a price.

Vampire: I assume you don`t play virals anywhere?

Terminus: The logic there is captured clusters like that would gain money for tax, making for an interesting collective situation as the only race to be truly most profitable running two income streams, tax and agriculture. And -50% is less than the downside on the c.4, so that doesn`t sound "huge".

T Terminus

15/07/2009 · 09:08 PM #27

What i never understood is why collectives being so good at producing food, cant make their similare clusters without a penalty to agriculture. It also would be nice to being able to build agri on assimilated clusters, it can be with a big penalty, like -50%, at least give us the choice even if it isnt the best income.

V VampireOfTheNight

15/07/2009 · 08:28 PM #26

Agree`s with Archaeoptyrex!

He has the same point as me but worded it slightly better :p

Archaeoptyrex post
/signed

V VampireOfTheNight

15/07/2009 · 08:24 PM #25

I think if you make Virals able to go agriculture, and it will only allow teams of virals to plauge the servers... one making profit by agriculture, one making profit by tax... = more virals because they balance them selves out...

There is already to many virals for the servers own good, they are suppost to be a hard race but your making them easier by increasing the profits that virals make via food/cgs (thus increasing tax income)... = bigger disadvantage to others...

I think the only viable agriculture incomes should be terran (increased income in agriculture) and Collectives...

Where virals should have the tax income reduced, making them slightly harder to play :p

Also for collectives, a plunder bonus is good as it makes them more viable to plunder and max housing as it takes too long on slower servers and the profits usually are not that good...

A Archaeoptyrex

15/07/2009 · 07:49 PM #24

Marauder: Is there anyway to increase population growth rate for races? That would be a great benefit. Seems unlikely.

Especially on slower servers, would be very useful if popping up a planet didn`t take so so many turns!

A Archaeoptyrex

15/07/2009 · 07:36 PM #23

1 suggestion first: max food price: 25, or maybe 30

That`s more than enough profit, and prevents silly buyouts -- and means that there`s no reason to withhold food from the market.

Questions:

1) I`m assuming virals will somehow be allowed to switch existing infra levels?

2) I used to be agri viral on rt -- from what I remember, food at 7 was roughly equal to commerce (including all the various mods). The hard part was only being allowed to use tainted c4`s (had to make `em).

If you allow virals to use infected c3s (as you say at approx same % reductions), won`t you by and large be making virals ... richer than they are currently?

Suggestion: Still do not allow infected clusters to make agri. But decrease the penalty a bit on tainted planets.

Industry.
If what you say is true: that virals making food @ 9/10 = new industry income from CG, then that means industry viral would again make *more* than current commerce viral (still without base pr problems). Isn`t this killing the point?

Finally,
(never to happen) Suggestion: put everyone on fair basis and remove population base pr. Then each race will go for max profit like they`re designed for. -- simpler.

J JJtheJetPlane

15/07/2009 · 07:33 PM #22

first and foremost i find it odd that on rt there is a grand total of 5 maru empires.

Marauder
Plunder bonus: +400% > +900%

The increase in plunder bonus there will effectively double how much plunder marauders make. This will dramatically improve their ability to play with the new ship upkeeps.

what about the maru`s that decide to play higher and do not rely on plundering?

H Hanabi

15/07/2009 · 04:43 PM #21

if the infected clusters are allowed to use industry and agri, then it would be good for the server, more other-economy based virals in the server.

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 02:20 PM #20

Do note that we want to change virals to a CG producing race. So there WILL be more CGs, and most of them will likely be coming from non a.miners.

E ear614

15/07/2009 · 01:50 PM #19

I agree There less cg then minerals

A AshyLarry

15/07/2009 · 01:43 PM #18

I like the market limits.

As for viral, it would be nice to see the income styles switch from tax and comm to tax and industry.

I like the increased plunder bonus for maru, but I am afraid it might make maru a little too easy to play.

For a.miner, I would like to see the industry modifier even higher. Lets say, +500%. I think that would really flood the market with CGs. I think that more CGs helps everyone.

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 12:13 PM #17

Fair enough. The idea is to diversify virals. It would take a LOT of coding to make them a `hard` race. Though the hardest part about them is that while yes, they can pick and choose what ships they want from each race, now that we are balancing the races to try and make every ship useful, virals have the fewest ship to pick from, so they are more predictable, easier to counter. Not as a race, but on an individual level.

The idea behind the economic change is to start bringing more tax, agri, and industry empires into the game. Commerce does not impact the market and as such is a problematic income type in the game. It creates an empire who exists outside of the system, and upsets the balance. So the game can have a LOT of virals who impact the market not at all and seriously disturb the balance. At least this way, if the server has a tonne of virals, they`ll have to begin splitting between income types.

R Raistilin

15/07/2009 · 12:12 PM #16

Taking away the " allure of a simple income " would make people possibly think in a broader sense.

S Slavyzz

15/07/2009 · 12:08 PM #15

I am hardly doing any "viral whining" simply giving my opinion on the changes you are suggesting (which I assume is why you posted them on the forum). I don`t think virals are a hard race, and I don`t think those changes will make them much harder, simply take a little away from the allure of having such a simple income with such a powerful race. More of an observation than a complaint :S

O Omegian

15/07/2009 · 12:04 PM #14

I should note, this does nerf them in a way, but also helps them. However no one should be complaining more about nerfs than virals, the borr range and chiron range were cut, then the D ships are now going away.

So cut out the viral whining and go flame my pm box on RT about whining about virals. Leave all the messages with I hate you.

S Squaks

15/07/2009 · 12:02 PM #13

i`d love for guards to be able add loyalty which they should given they are a tax only race but hey if i wanted lots of income i`d go a miner or tax viral

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 12:00 PM #12

True, slavyzz. But it`s a funny thing, everybody seems to be complaining over how much we are nerfing the virals in every way and yet you`re saying they aren`t hard enough now, even though you are one of the people complaining? Maybe we should nerf them more then.

No. I do not care what it says in the manual, frankly. Virals are not terran and therefore should not get commerce. Pretty simple.

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 11:59 AM #11

I`m pretty sure I didn`t mention guards because I did not think a change to their income necessary. The only thing I WANT would be a slight reduction to their tax efficiency but the ability to increase loyalty up to 2500. But that isn`t going to happen, so no changes to guards planned.

S Slavyzz

15/07/2009 · 11:58 AM #10

I understand that in the manual it says "hard". But a race that can explore, create a personal ship list from several other races, and with these suggestions use captured clusters and their own clusters for both agri and tax does not seem like a hard race. In regard to the `difficulty" I would say that the manual is inaccurate.

O Omegian

15/07/2009 · 11:57 AM #9

Guards dont need a change to their incomes, they are already balanced income wise and will have the ability to deal with more people to attack since more will become tax based like them so same base pr area

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