Guardian Update Discussion

D DeilocheOP

OP 15/07/2009 · 08:25 AM #1

Constructive criticism ONLY. If you don`t like something, say why. If you do like something, please also say why. Useless posts are unacceptable.

Changes courtesy of: EphemeralEternity, BrokenSwordS, Deiloche, Raistilin

G.Fluorite
E: 8,000 > 30,000
K: 8,000 > 0
Hull: 180,000 > 180,000
R: 6 > 4
Scanner: 4,200 > 500
Upkeep: 9,000 > 7,500
PR: 73,827 > 69,768
BR: 1 > 1
ES: 99 > 40
KS: -30 > -60
MS: -20 > 20
CS: -20 > 25

Tourmaline
K: 8,000 > 1,500
Hull: 15,000 > 18,000
R: 4 > 4
No Retal > No Retal
Scanner: 250 > 1,400
Upkeep: 720 > 700
PR: 6,510 > 6,510
BR: 4 > 5
ES: -50 > 25
KS: 50 > -60
MS: -40 > 50
CS: 40 > -20

G.Amethyst
E: 4,000 > 15,000
K: 4,000 > 0
Hull: 40,000 > 24,000
R: 4 > 6
Scanner: 3,500 > 1,800
Upkeep: 2,100 > 2,030
PR: 21,132 > 18,018
BR: 3 > 2
ES: 99 > 0
KS: -20 > 50
MS: -20 > -65
CS: -20 > -0

L.Topaz
M: 29,500 > 16,000
Hull: 25,000 > 100,000
R: 8 > 7
No Retal > No Retal
No Defense > No Defense
Scanner: 3,400 > 2,700
Upkeep: 4,536 > 5,091
PR: 47,511 > 49,081
BR: 1 > 1
ES: -45 > 35
KS: 10 > -20
MS: 90 > 95
CS: -55 > -45

L.Garnet
M: 16,000 > 8,000
Hull: 40,000 > 20,000
R: 7 > 8
No Retal > No Retal
No Defense > No Defense
Scanner: 5,000 > 2,050
Upkeep: 3,600 > 1,834
PR: 35,728 > 16,303
BR: 2 > 3
ES: -20 > 0
KS: -10 > -15
MS: 50 > 25
CS: -10 > 10

Edited by BrokenSwordS on 2009-07-16

BrokenSwordS

16/07/2009 · 07:36 AM #37

~ fixed G.Amethyst range its actually 6 not 5..

S Squaks

16/07/2009 · 07:33 AM #36

the garnet looks pretty good i think, its nice to have a low pr beasting ship since the ruby and tourm are nerfed, the amethyst could be a decent ship with a medium buildrate now

E EphemeralEternity

16/07/2009 · 07:26 AM #35

Lookie at me!

The amethyst concept has been changed, It was an old design, made during the first series of guard ship updates, since the fluorite and it were very similar and Fluorite was more balanced the Amethyst has been retooled as more of an attack ship, look it over.

Garnet, the Garnet now also has a new proposed form, it performs fairly similar despite the increase in range, but it`s smaller allowing it to be more useful to in lower prs.

S Squaks

16/07/2009 · 07:24 AM #34

I`m actually liking the new def guard ships, this will make guards stack more i guess, which from what i`ve tested if you spam and get hit by a lyth spam or such you will lose everytime, guards are not that great at spamming unless they match up good. But if you have problems try playing higher in pr its a lot easier up at 20mil+ pr

D DeilocheOP

16/07/2009 · 06:17 AM #33

I know. Also not possible. I`m trying to balance for the whole game here, Karnage. And frankly I won`t use the new tourmaline on normal a whole lot, but for a different reason. It`s buildrate is fairly low. When I have time, it will definitely play an extremely important role in my fleet. A ship that replaces the need to have fodder or fez up high with that big missile defense bonus to stop in the tracks missile spams even several times larger and still survive. It`s not about how much damage it deals but surviving to the second round.

K Karnage

16/07/2009 · 06:13 AM #32

just take into the account that RT and turn based are very different in how people play. i would almost suggest different ships, etc for RT vs turn based

D DeilocheOP

16/07/2009 · 06:11 AM #31

I am a guardian Karnage. :P I know of what you speak. But every ship needs it`s place, we don`t need a bunch of the same ship running around, it`s a complete waste.

My problem was that I was really tired. Sorry for that. But still. 3k damage on that thing, even with "only" 17k hull, would be absolutely absurd. It would be as much of a beast, if not more, than it`s old self. We`re trying to balance the race, not make them unstoppable.

Yeah, I am a little worried about the possibility of the Fluorite being spammed. We`ll see.

Also, the Amethyst has since been changed. It conflicted too much with the Fluorite`s role so we changed it. Our new prototype is... interesting.

Anyways. Please stop trying to look for every single ship to do the same thing. I`m not going to give that to you. Look at them for stacking. If you`re not interested in stacking, well, that`s unfortunate, but then these updates are not for you anyways. There are going to be ships you`ll spam anyways.

P PistolPete

16/07/2009 · 05:07 AM #30

MichaelJ.. The virals I play against are the most stacked opponents i got whereas the guards almost always spam som ship, as almost every guardship is a great spamship at turnbased server. Especially the flourite looks as if it may end up as one of the new favourite spam ships.

K Karnage

16/07/2009 · 04:55 AM #29

for the tourm, at least give it half its old firepower, no less than 3K. take the upkeep back to 720 and drop the hull to 17K - see what you think about that?

other than that, id like to see the fluorite stay E&K and not go 100% E, split 30K 66/33 between E&K if you have to. bring the range back to 5 and increase the upkeep to 8250.

same with amethyst, keep the kinetic in there.

topaz... jeez what a hull you put on it - i need to think on that one.

K Karnage

16/07/2009 · 04:30 AM #28

what is your problem man?

its not me that doesnt know how to stack, try being a guardian and defend against 2 stack spams everytime you get hit. doesnt matter if i stack or not - with high base power + the 30% over their big stacks are double or more my avg stack.

M Michaelj

16/07/2009 · 03:04 AM #27

I think these ideas look pretty good especially the changes to topaz. Make virals learn how to stack instead of just spamming missile ships.
The others i think look pretty balanced, not good but still better than they were. i`ll miss the old tourm, but the new one seems pretty hard to kill even if it doesn`t do much damage and the increased build rate is good.

A Archaeoptyrex

16/07/2009 · 02:53 AM #26

Keep calm Deiloche, we appreciate your work, but you wanted to see comments. I don`t think they`re particularly aggressively phrased, certainly not by GC standards!

D DeilocheOP

15/07/2009 · 09:38 PM #25

Karnage, I`m sorry that you don`t understand the concept of stacking, but not EVERY SHIP is supposed to be firepower. The aim is to give every ship it`s niche. The damage on the tourm may need a very small increase. I agree though, this ship will not be very good at spamming. A shame! What`s your point?

Would it be able to touch my top stacks? Well if I have fez up there it will do a good number on them. If I`m leading a hull heavy ship then neither ship will do much damage at all. If I`m leading a high powered offensive ship then it will survive easily then fire back at the low hulled ship with a vengeance.

And that`s not even talking about the glorious use of that ship for real stacking.

As for range... I`m SORRY, really, but do you realize just how much the average range of guardians has INCREASED since I started balancing ships? How many more ships you have for making a good stack? You complain when we drop the range on one ship because IT DOESN`T NEED IT for balancing and throw a hissy fit. Really, come on. There is more to ships than just range. If we gave that Fluorite 7 range I`d have to shoot myself in the head for making a ship better than the pyth. :P

And guards have always been weak to kinetic, just not nearly as weak to it as they have been to missile. As long as you have not one, not two, but THREE K.Class ships to work with, you`re never going to be in danger of having difficulties with kinetic. Though I admit for slower servers there`s only one K.Class ship, there still exists more than the Hun-Li with strong anti kinetic shields.

A Archaeoptyrex

15/07/2009 · 08:41 PM #24

Karnage has touched upon something -- I don`t attack much with my guardian empire -- but how do guards feel about actually killing stuff (within the standard pr range, not with fed war). In my limited experience, I`m finding my killing power ... limited.

K Karnage

15/07/2009 · 08:14 PM #23

Well the other thing with the new tourm - take your RT account Deiloche, take your top stacks - does this tourmaline stand a chance to any one of them? if it could even survive at this point, it wouldn`t be able to kill anything with its lack of firepower.
Seems like guardians are being moved towards being weak to kinetic rather than missiles... that`s a little against the idea i would think -

A Archaeoptyrex

15/07/2009 · 08:12 PM #22

G Fluorite:
at range 4, not sure this is going to be used much -- but it`s a solid ship.
suggestion: 130k hull + range 6, or 85k hull + range 7 (might be too similar to corun)

Tourmaline:
I like the ship mod switch. Especially paid guards, with new Hun Zen, have massive energy/kinetic defense (2 good chemical based double +99`s).
At range 4, I might give it a tad more firepower, maybe 1800.
It`s still a strafez-killer (lookie the hull), but it`s (very!) missile strong now. Consider +10% to missile, -10% to chemical.

Sad to see it go, but it should never have ... been.

Amethyst: range 5 ... still not that useful. Maybe give it slightly higher KS and MS and at least herc-killer on defense? (It probably does quite well already). Given it`s mods, looks like a slightly better version of the proposed fluorite ... -- but these are going to be 2 limited-use ships. I can`t really think of a situation where they`d be useful ...

However, admitted: fluorite + amethyst are better ships

Topaz: looks pretty godly. I wouldn`t increase the missile shield (how much hull does it need!)

J JJtheJetPlane

15/07/2009 · 08:09 PM #21

ya the only thing i see as a problem with guard ships overall is their general lack of range.

K Karnage

15/07/2009 · 07:59 PM #20

Well, that makes Tourmaline useless - all hull and no firepower with low range, not a ship i will use anymore - don`t know about other servers, but on RT we don`t play to defend just doesn`t work, if we aren`t offensive there`s no point. Fluorite, good but you just destroyed it with the range drop - we don`t have many ships that have the range to fire first, thus making defense incredibly hard. Amethyst looks good, no comment on Topaz.

K Knossos

15/07/2009 · 01:15 PM #19

Everything looks pretty good to me. Topaz looks like a good contrast to the emerald just as the new tourm will for the ruby. I`ve been fond of the original G.Amethyst, but the new one doesn`t look too bad. Overall, I like the variety in the guard fleet now.

BrokenSwordS

15/07/2009 · 12:33 PM #18

the idea for Amethyst is currently being changed and will be updated later..

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