Guardian Update Discussion

also from those test results broken, of course guards can win when we spam equal pr vs missile ships but i`d like to see tested what happems when we get attacked by them on agressive and aren`t spamming, just my 2 cents there

i already start attacking on aggressive... since when i stack i can always keep tom ruby at the bottom to flank heavily on those common spam..

but with this tom being defensive base, guard have lost a good flank ship.. tom should not be test with lyth or tyr in the battlesim since the proposed tom have +50% missile mod.. though the angel test look promising.

we can keep tom as defensive.. i agree with ee of guard being unique.. guard having big ship which climb fast.. and yes its difficult to give guard high range ship simply because they build too fast to be balance. although we have neutral to use, they are still pretty expensive for guard to use.. usually i will only use one expensive neutral.. its kinda expensive to hold 2 expensive neutral especially when guard usually stack at higher pr.. i also don wish guard changing into terran with mix of different size ships.

but is it unbalance to give guard one more long range ship? I`m thinking of having a range 8/9 energy ship that build slow.. maybe around 18k-20k per turn.. slower than ruby.. we have emmy for high range missile, option of broadsword for high range kinetic, but we still lack of one high range energy.. ccancer range is poor and cclass ship are defensive which guard already have various option to use. this will guard ship a viable choice to build something slow and without the cost of neutral ship..

jus want to make stacking better, but if the staff still feel this will make guard too powerful i`m happy with all the changes till now..

we`re not telling people to go attack people on aggressive, but with the new emmy tourm and maybe some of the other new ships it`s a possibility. the reason for it pwning ships on aggressive is purely a defensive design

Right you got me, I was just making discussion though so no harm.
Maybe you are on to something there, what about the rest of you guards? any opinion on the results?

PR losses
Attacker 9550170 = 14.7%
Defender 17362620 = 26.6% no DP

Attacker`s PR 65178120 Defender`s PR 65175000
100%

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 1
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 10012 1467 8545
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
Tyr Dreadnought 5000 1332 3668


PR losses
Attacker 5618130 = 9.4%
Defender 13788360 = 23% no DP

Attacker`s PR 60080790 Defender`s PR 60080000
100%

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 1
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 9229 863 8366
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
M.Lyth Dreadnought 2000 459 1541


PR losses
Attacker 18280080 = 26.3%
Defender 25665836 = 36.9% no DP

Attacker`s PR 69617940 Defender`s PR 69618000
100%

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 1
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 10694 2808 7886
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
D.Angel Battleship 3000 1106 1894


on careful

PR losses
Attacker 18052230 = 27.7%
Defender 29107155 = 44.7% DP

Attacker`s PR 65178120 Defender`s PR 65175000
100%

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 1
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 10012 2773 7239
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
Tyr Dreadnought 5000 2233 2767


PR losses
Attacker 10669890 = 17.8%
Defender 24302360 = 40.5% DP

Attacker`s PR 60080790 Defender`s PR 60080000
100%

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 1
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 9229 1639 7590
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
M.Lyth Dreadnought 2000 809 1191




PR losses
Attacker 34249110 = 49.2%
Defender 37268836 = 53.5% DP

Attacker`s PR 69617940 Defender`s PR 69618000
100%


PR losses
Attacker 34249110 = 49.2%
Defender 37268836 = 53.5% DP

*** Victory! ***
Colonies: 2
Attacker`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
new Tourmaline Fighter 10694 5261 5433
Defender`s fleet
Name Units Casualties Remaining
D.Angel Battleship 3000 1606 1394

on normal.. your going to need a better reason karnage..

Edited by BrokenSwordS on 2009-07-17

on aggressive... that`s where you`re getting caught, as a guard i dare not attack on aggressive - I have low range, they just get cleaned out then i have just lost. careful and normal are best bets, and at careful the new tourm only puts out 750 dmg per 6,510 power... that`s nearly 10:1. just something to think about - also at higher powers, when other races are spamming ships the chances that our fleets survive to shoot back are seriously degraded - with lower firepower on any ship it further reduces the amount of damage we can do in turn.

sure at lower powers these ships are pretty mean, but when the numbers get high it gets ugly.

archae, the no defense was removed from corund a while back, and we did attempt to make a higher ranged G class with corund, but every one complained some we took the range back to seven and upped the damage/hull a bit to make up for the loss in range....people were complaining about a high range multi damage type ship that built so fast, and frankly they are harder to balance.

also range isn`t everything, sure being able to hit first makes a big difference, but look at the new tourm concept for example...try spamming it with any missile boat on aggressive, not only will it take bare min casualties it should also wipe any missile capital and most long range missile boats on aggressive, test it and look.

guard ships are made with ultra high hull for a reason, so that they can take a hit survive it and still live to do damage, that`s the unique part about guardian, if you want we could simply rewrite guard and make them like every other race, have a few useless 20-1k pr ships, a few higher ranged 1k-3k ships then 2 5k-10k medium ranged ships, and 2 20k-50k pr low ranged ships, if that`s what guardians want i`ll get to work making the ships right now, it won`t bother me

aside from racial ships you do have neutrals, queen king sword b sword, that have range bringing your total up to 6 8 range or higher ships, i know they`re expensive but they`re still there for guards to use. find your income bell curb vs build cost with one - 2 neutrals in there and stick at that pr.

i know guards/any tax empire can also kill their base pr at any time by dropping pop. annoying? yes. and tax people will complain about the slow build back rate of larges, but that`s the price for choosing land over convenience (Edens, basically the only reason why that planet class exist)

"Biohazard
4hour(s) ago I agree with Arch.

Guardian`s should be the universe protectors, however with a max range of 7... we become fodder hunters.

I don`t like that,
Low fire power; Big hull; medium range
and a few 9 range should be around. Esle guard ships will be shout down before getting a change to shoot back.

No matter how much hull"

at smaller prs like 1-10mil its easy to beat gaurds even ones with 100k base pr, i mean as long as you stack, atleast 8 of your ships fire first outranging gaurd

Are we really going to keep the no-defense on the corun, without the no-retal feature?

I agree with Arch.

Guardian`s should be the universe protectors, however with a max range of 7... we become fodder hunters.

I don`t like that,
Low fire power; Big hull; medium range
and a few 9 range should be around. Esle guard ships will be shout down before getting a change to shoot back.

No matter how much hull

i`d rather have a high range energy ship or such instead of another missile one

topaz is going down to 7......

instead of making the garnet a high range missile ship which we already have the topaz and emmy why not make the amethyst or agate have high range with energy damage

the last gaurd that could could do anything abpve 100mil was moops and he quit/his empire was destroyed buy some staff idk whole story no one tells me nuthin

yea i agree with archangel on this one, during the d maru UW for example everyone of thier ships out ranged us greatly so i could only spam emmy/topaz and hope i hit a ship thats weak to missile and the only only ship we are great at besides killing fodders with ruby/tourm is using k class to kill swords/broads

i doubt there is alot of guard which have the money to spam to 100mil and above to hit uw.. most guard hit uw at low pr.. they deal great damage to uw becos most uw have fodder and guard have ruby tom.. for most other fleet we usually cant do any damage before getting wiped, other than building neutral ship..

I think an underlying trait of guardian is low range, seems your ships still do okay :P. Guards protect the galaxy yeah, and you have some great answers to a lot of ships seen in UW`s, but if you have an answer to too many there wouldn`t be many UW`s going off huh?

i like that now each L ship serve a different role.

the fluorite and amethyst change at the right direction.

now we have 2energy ship, 4kinetic ship, 3 missile ship, 4mix weapon ship (3 of them being k class)

now let me put things into perspective.
Kinetic ship
Tom low range low firepower high hull
Quartz low range low firepower high hull
Agate low range low firepower high hull
ruby low range high firepower low hull

Energy ship
fluorite low range high hull low firepower
amethyst low range decent hull decent firepower

Mix weapon ship
corundum decent range decent firepower decent hull
li low range low firepower high hull
xe low range low firepower high hull
zen low range low firepower high hull

Although we are moving away for the story line when updating the ship, i think there is one part we have to stick to it. Guard being protector of the galaxy. Guard already lost a important part of the game being not able to set off uw, and hence we should at least let guard continue to be protector of the galaxy. we already cannot hit alot of uw ship due to our low range, the only major part we play in hitting uw is eliminating the fodder in the uw.. i think thats why stephen give us godly tom ruby. currently ruby still serve it purpose of able to take down fodder, It will not be too much to let tom do the same thing since we have quatz and agate as kinetic defending ship.

if tom really need to be defending ship, can we have agate or quartz to be higher range ship? Quote: "But every ship needs it`s place, we don`t need a bunch of the same ship running around, it`s a complete waste."