D.Class Ships

terran = able to pawn all race in atk and defence , havent any major issues , T emp was a bit boring , now its a bit more interesting ... they certainly arnt on the top of the list of problems

TWU,

agree with almost everything.

The argument that you would see more diversified virals wont hold up in court unless more ships are tweaked. I would pretty much also pick the ships you have on your list and those that are different are not ships that would be used much at all.

Maybe stacking would be improved or maybe it would even go further out the window as you take an extra ship away worth building.

The guard/viral factor should be a major concern imo as the best antiguard weapon is the angel (tyr as well of course) and by taking that away you definitely give guards an egde.

The problem with the angel is not that its overpowered. Its the upkeep. Its been a problem since the first rebalancing discussion back with the really old forums in 2004/5. If ukpeep was changed then the problem would be solved.
However since that is possible without screwing it up for the marus, then I dont now what to do. I would like to see the virals keep the angel, but I agree that the upkeep promotes those dang big behind spams (mostly rt tho, please keep that in mind!!)

On turn based I dont feel the problem is that big and I dont like the idea of changing something just because rt is messed up. (imo it has always been messed up because the turn factor is not so important)

Theres not even a viral on fast having bull I think. Not the old ones at least, so it was never a problem there with the bull at least.

You guys decide, and I`ll go for it.

arghhh my full view on dclass
overall i feel virals shouldn`t be allowed to RE them.

having sed this some of my concerns (these i think are things that just MIGHT happen or my predictions of what might happen)

for a start it will narrow virals ships list i predict most virals going
herc tyr phor/zues
chlor ara lyth
pike pyth tiger/bara (the new bara is quite good )

i think its good in sense as it gives a clear reason and advantage of being maru :D which equals more marus (argi marus make as much as comm terrens per unit land per inf btw they are quite rich, i used to make 1.2mil of food a turn with only 100inf :P )

i`m scared it will in-directly make gaurdian stronger as angel is probs one of the main ships used to quickly wipe out..... its better than herc cos it can also beat lis and its better than tyr cos its cheaper and quicker to build.

i recon pyth spams will be flying around ....... i actualy believe it will SLIGHTLY promote stacking as before d angels spams where so common cos d angel was ship decent missle mods and decent kinetic and missle damage it can tear through pretty much every ship at the spam pr advantage expect for herc..... and if its just single pyth spam people are using stacks would be very efffective at taking it out...

over all i am pro the idea as it just bring an extra element to maru and i think it will make virals think more about what they build rather than the monotous pyth angel, borr angel, herc angel spams

i dnt even care to mention the advantages of taking d bull away from viral.... virals are good enough without that awsome ship .... no i dnt think its that op but its still a very very effective usefull ship :D makes virals extra strong

half of this was rambling soz but i hope i got my points across >.<

actually i don`t really care if its change coz i was used to it.. but ever since mau could edit, almost every race gets suggested to tweak.. even miner starbases upkeep.. :S

i said almost coz no one else said to tweak terran.. makes me left alone.. :(

I`d like virals to keep D class

currently what lambadplz says that blah blah blah is that viral need the minimum amount of ship needed to rev engineer (which is already in place) but needs to invest a certain turns and spend a minimum amount of money (which could be a bit steep for a new race, thus making it harder for viral in the beginning)

as for me i`m just lobbying for d.class uncapturable.. easy done it.. solves virals and maru dilemma.. i`m not lobbying for godlike ships.. lol..

Crack: Why then remove the D.class?

lambadplc
gona be honest i read the first 3 lines then stoped... i duno what ure idea it could have been amazing could have been awfull but anything that requires coding requires stephen which is never going to happen :( its shame that were so limited to what change can be done but its the sad reality :(

read my earlier post.. taking away d.class from viral doesn`t make it more harder than it is currently..

I honestly haven`t played viral at all so my idea is probably already there or sucks hard.

Why not make Virals have to initially research having to RE different ship classes from the races? Once they get done with that, it can be done under projects. The requirement for the newly required projects then is to simply have a certain amount of specific ships they wish to RE and invest roughly 50-200 turns and around 5-200 mil depending on the ship class. You will lose all investment if you get attacked and lose, or disband below the minimum ship requirement of course.

If people are complaning about the ships. You could raise the amount to RE depending on the class or race. A more rarely seen race`s ships, like Maruder would obviously be more difficult to RE then say ships from Terrans if Terrans are the most common empires out there in the universe.

I don`t know if that even makes sense v_v.

Agree with TWU.

*gasps* Twu, you said think? i do believe that`s the problem right there, people don`t "think".

I absolutly hate every1 who uses the whole "well its ment to be a hard race" excuse for every change made in this game....

surly if everything was 100% balenced each race would be equal in terms of fighting grounds with lets say slight perks and disadvantages say miners slighty weaker but alot richer gaurds poorer but stronger....

also at the end of the day in terms of fighting i beleive each race is as hard as each other with the expecption of viral cos they get 11 decent ships

i beleive the hard tags should be associated to how hard an empire is to set up ..... eg obviously collectives should have hard cos they cant explore marus have medium cos they cnt explore but can use U.class and gaurds have hard cos lets face it setting up a gaurd empire takes a hell load of effort

atm i would consider setting up viral medium cos although u can just explore a nice c4 it does take ages... took me about 30/40 days of exploring to get my c4 nice and plump...

i just hate the whole way people go well its a hard race there for they should be able to build these ships..... according to that logic then gaurd collecitve and viral should all have rubish ships and terrens miners should have god like ships..... common think it through...........!!!!!

we don`t give viral bad ship.. we just take away d..class ship from them.. they can rev engineer any other 3 ships from terran, miner and maru each.. their choice.. which 3 ships they think is best.. plus their vborr and chiron..
is that so hard from the way it is currently?? the only difference is that they don`t spam d.class.. which part does it make the race difficult as of currently?? of coz they are not supposed to be very very very rich.. lol.. every race supposed to have its pros and cons rite..

So basically what is happening is that virals gets very nerfed because they have become too dominating at RT. How about the other servers.

Since buildrate matters less at RT, a counteract could be to higher the buildrate of borrs?

I don`t think the way to make a race hard to play should be by giving them bad ships. Will just make the race not used long term. Unless goal is to make all switch to guards or miners.

yeah you`re probably right DM --

What I really wanted to say is:
1) removing D-class, esp angels would definitely make virals much harder. It`s an awesome ship (range 7, huge attack, missile defence, high build and minimal upkeep).

Without it, the cheap spam ship left over is pyth, and we all know how pathetically easy it is to kill that one! (but I guess not with angels any more!)

So as a viral by and large, that would hurt.

BUT:
2) It would probably make more people go maru -- maybe.
The problem with maru isn`t their ship selection (which is good now), or ship upkeep (pretty low). It`s income level. I know people always say they`re supposed to be bottom-feeders.

But it`s prohibitively expensive to be anything *other* than bottom feeders if you`re a plunder maru (maybe you`re better off as food maru, but it`s still pretty tough).

If you want real balance, you need to (at some point) hike the plunder income%

Well arch, doubt you should be staying at 70-80 mil PR all the time and be rich at the same time. That`s simply wrong.

Just to comment to further what Ching said. On fast, as viral, I make 6mil/turn with ~110 commerce (not checked precisely what number). I certainly find myself consistently poor.

The major difference on fast is that by and large, there`s usually not the turns to just sit researching all day (although there have been times when that`s possibe).

When you`re constantly building, then ship-build cost becomes v important too.

*if only there could be rt-specific changes* -- dreams on

miners have 12 cols btw, I think most descisions are made based on rt where ppl sit at high pr with cheap ships. on turn based the cost hike of building them is felt more and u have to rebuild them a lot. tho u still have a great choice of ships from marauder

I do not agree that it is very easy to have high income as viral if you compare to other races. As a commercial terran you make 50% more income than you do as a commercial viral. you only for 12 colonies, where miners and terrans can hold 15 and make much larger clusters. The ships cost 3 times the price terrans pay, and you pay the same amount as upkeep. Miner ships are even more expensive for virals compared to miners.

You all agree that it is a problem that some ships are very cheap to get. But why isn`t it a problem that some are too expensive. Modifying virals should not be all about nerfing them, but balancing them, if goal is to make it more favourable to use stacked fleets.