Guardian

Sorry for the typo. What I am saying dev summed it up pretty much - if you know I am stacking you can easily win, that`s my main point. As decent guardian stack will always need a lot of fez in it. And that drops the average build rate significantly. Add tourm and ruby that doesn`t have great build rate to these, and you will finish up with something like 32-35k average build rate. You can outbuild that with viral, that was my main point. And emmy spam might work on some occasions but as easy it will take down somebody it will be taken down too. The rest of my thoughts are pretty much the same as deiloche`s.

Yes, turn to turn you will lose a bit, though guards still will have to use non guard ships to even out their stacks. Also, you cannot count the king in all guard stacks as it is a paid only ship.

But, you know... it`s REALLY pathetic that you can beat a ship with 50% more pr than you with almost any ship in your arsenal right now. It should NOT be that way. Guardians do not have the range, nor the low upkeep ships, nor the income. The higher buildrate on many of their ships is negated by the need to use the disgustingly expensive fez. I have no intention of removing the guardian tendency towards fez from the race, but I would like to remove the absolute reliance upon fez to just hope to win against a missile spammer. Guards will still retain a missile weakness, but they need some fast building ships that can deal with missiles. The emmy is such a ship.

Changes I`m looking at on the corr: Increases in damage output, decrease in range back to 7. Will toy with the shields a bit, including boosting the e shield back up and dropping ecm/i hull a bit. Might raise the hull a bit as well. Just updates on what is going through my head, not doing any testing or actual designing right now, a lot of schoolwork on the run this week. Let me know what you think about these changes I`m thinking of, and any other suggestions you may have.

heh, yea yea yea, at equal pr, yes those ship will win, got it. But for 1 turn they will all loose. The lower hull and higher pr are improvements compared to now, so I`ll go for it, but I have my doubts.

And drunken, (2 times herc is a typo I take it :) ) if you match those ships with equal turns of guard ships I will surely loose. Simple as that. Ruby nerf helps a bit tho.

I know I sound completely pessimistic which is not my intention. I welcome the changes and I look forward to trying them out. Just pointing out that guards now have a lot of useful ships. They have always had high build rates etc, but with much more crabpy ships, now most of them are quite useful and the build rates are still good.

On another note, its still not going to possible to change ships for viral, is it? Would be really nice :D

Guardian ships deserve to have a good build rate to compliment our complete lack of income xD

Yeah africa, read what evane said :D I agree with him completely on that one. And let`s say you are the viral and I am the guard stacked at 8 mil PR(because with 225 turns you can`t get much higher than that with fez in your stack). You know I am balanced, you use herc/pyth/tyr/herc/angel half spam with 225 turns on normal. Will I win. I don`t think so. Not to mention you being viral you have quite nice arsenal to fight those emeralds defensively - hercs, fez, chirons. So I don`t find it that unbalancing considering the new emerald is rather fragile. I haven`t tested it but I am pretty sure it gets owned by nirvs lictors bulls hercs and many other ships with decent build rate(well not 72k but guardian has always had great build rates).

ryu-jin spam vs.. emerald.. ftw

corundum would not stand up very well vs nirv even if it was spammed :)

ruby .. ah ty for dropping that hull some

*has also designed a new corun but doubts anyone will like it*

it`s just the massive range for huge build rates that get me. I`m not saying the ships are outrageously overpowered or that they cant be beaten, but it`s advancing the guardian armada from a careful to aggressive race. I even think the corundum is kinda junky but still..

As it is, you could use almost any ship except in the game to deal with a large stack of those corundums. Nirvana, Hercules(not on aggressive), Tyr, Pyth, Lyth, Lictor even Angel on careful are all viable options (and even if the corundum`s weapons/hull are improved Nirvana and Lictor should still own it). And hercules, pyth or lictor, and many other capitals on careful would destroy the emerald.

oh come on lol... how is that unrealistic. It depends more on alliances than race.

well, drunken, I have no interest in fighting at 2 mill either drunken :)

Lets say a guard is using decent balanced stacks at 8-14mill pr which is reasonable with 225 turns on fast. Hes leading a nice stack of corrs, what are you actually supposed to take him out with. He can great stacks all the way down, including straf, tourm, hun-li, rub, tourm, and some of the frigs. What can I use to take out that first corrs stack and the rest without spending a dung load of turns on what I can only see is thors since my borrs no longer work. Then I have to hope theres no emy on top.

Point is, guard is not unbeatable, but the turns needed are crazy at equal pr. And guards can fight a lot higher than 8 mill.

Doubt many guards can spam freely all the time at 250 mil PR so your scenario is rather unrealistic.

ok.. I`m all for the revamping idea, and I`m not trying to be pessimistic BUT, as I see it, the proposed ships not only have massive build rates, but their range is also overkilling all other races main large ships.

Scenario: A guard and a terran for instance are both at 250mil power rating and the guardian wants to spam corundums and emeralds (bare with me, i realise i said `spam` but stay with me here) Does anyone realise how many turns the terran would need to use to get something with 8-9 range in the front stacks? Even if, let`s say, the terran is stacking, placing something with that amount of range up top would take much more time and effort than the guardian`s spamfest.

and even if the guard loses (after murdering the terrans top 3-4 stacks) their build back up would not be too troublesome. and if the terran were offline, the guard might not have won, but enjoy the build back up while the guard is skating around building 2x as fast with ships that now have aggressive capabilities.

the proposed ruby, even with no defence, is still a monster of a ship that is still one of the top in the game...

emerald seems a bit offensive for a guardian ship, but not way unbalanced for a paid race...reducing damage to ~40k might be more reasonable, especially with 9 range and those mods.

...it looks like both the corundum and the emerald have become a bit bigger in terms of PR due to these changes...is that what we want?...or maybe hull and scanner could take a slight drop.

chaos: for negative mods, that`s not the damage formula. for -50, the amount of damage would be divided by 150%, so 200 hull ship with -50 mod would have 133.33... apparent hull for that damage type.

wel will see what happens.

Bio, you are super-biased, ruby with range 8??? The new ruby is so crabpy, right. Only an excess of 1:1 damage and 1:1 hull. That`s probably better than 90-95% of the ships in the game. So stop whining. And don`t make me laugh, lictors are so spammable, lol yeah. If you want to win 1 col, yes. But with ruby/tourm on collective for instance you win 3.

Well this is supposed to improve guard stacking, not spamming, I don`t have a problem with the new ruby cause I prefer to use them to flank anyways, and that no retal gives it a sexy edge with the extra 1k damage

Africa, you are partly right, partly wrong. Guard might be able to make something decent at 8 mil PR with 100-150 turns and your viral couldn`t (let`s say we draw a comparison between your viral on fast and my guard there). But well, I can`t fight really well at 2 mil PR with 1.3-1.4 mil base PR. And my base is getting higher and higher. What when it hits 2 mil +? And there are a number of guards with 1 mil + base PR on TB. Considering there is no alternative to their income, which isn`t that great anyway, there should be a nice build rate for them. Guards are meant for high PR, just as simple. But when it comes to a race at higher PR, we(the guards in this comparison) can never be on par with you(the rich viral). So guard really needs decent high build rate ships.

@deil, first off all i`am not trying to offend any one.
yes ruby`s are spam ships atm, but so are lictors lyth pyth angels.....

oke to the point again.
yes Corundum do need more attention, but the range improvement is great

Ruby`s getting "no defence" would suck cause only 6 range. if you make it 8 range and no defence atleast on defence they get to shoot fist.

Well good luck on the weaking

And I have the same problem with the current corr, but at least it doesnt have range 8. I could maybe live with the corr, but I dont like the emy.