Guard range

OP 01/01/2009 · 10:19 PM #1

Time for guard comments (complaints) again.

Let`s just recap on which ships will tear through most of ruby/li/tourm (garnet corun too):

destroyers:
P thor, P zeus
M chlorite
M calcite (maybe)
Tiger, and not forgetting
Pikes (deals with those nasty queens/fodder/runner too!)

Slightly bigger ships:
(NEW) Hammerhead
(NEW) Bullhead
M flysch (well a little)

Big ships:
(NEW) M Lyth
(the mighty) Tyr
Angel
Pyth (maybe), Nirv (maybe)
Herc

With the three big new additions (which the newer virals tend to take at least 2 of) it`s become impossible to defend even half reasonably.

1: Building neutrals followed by guard ships doesn`t work! Virals can now have many many high range ships
(e.g. generically, how about pike tyr herc borry thor angel bull lyth chlorite flysch
that`s a very reasonable ship choice).

I`ve played every race for a long time and I don`t think guards have ever had it so rough. (comments from vets?)

2. High pr defense: you might argue that a corundum spam is a good high pr defense -- but people have bullheads (not afraid to use them) and they kill all guard ships.

3. So maybe that leaves the good old queen ruby/li/tourm half-stack defense. Well with tyrs, bulls and angels whatever order ruby/li/tourm is in they`ll die, and second round the queens will go.

So I do think guard range needs to go up a little:

T TheWorldUnited

06/01/2009 · 11:08 AM #33

defo bump .............................

W WhatIsTheMatrix

03/01/2009 · 06:38 AM #32

as a terran, keep some sraf handy, TWO stacks of missiles or more, couple hercs, and plenty of kinetic floating around and the guards wont stand up much

C CrazyMaverickTNM

02/01/2009 · 10:39 PM #31

I personally thing Guard fleets are perfectly fine, also higher power guards have a much easier time than lower power guards with stacking.

Also its personal hard to guess what some guards got, some spam or stack & depending on which you can totally screw urself over hitting them period.

Also i thought ur one stack down below on this page sucked. fodder can be ok to use, but i would use it somewhere else. plus i would take one stack of fodder out & replace it with a better ship that deals damage or has hull.

Correct Viral & only Viral got the opinion for having so many different classes of ships to easily beat stacking guards. However Terran & A.miner still do a good job along with the New Maru ships.

Arch go out & try some different stacks & try fighting in the higher powers where ur ships are more dangerous compared to the lower powers. a guard stacked at 30 million power does far better than that stacked lower.

Also Maru was easy to beat most of the time when it came to stacking, he is a good sport about having fun, however he has this habit of spamming after losing a few times.

but he is correct in the lower powers alot of people spam guards & he used it to his advanage when he was guard.

C chaos

02/01/2009 · 10:22 PM #30

Well, I thought we have long agreed on that ruby/tourm are too good compared to the rest of guard ships? Personally I don`t mind a nerf and compensate with a more balanced guard stack.

D DrunkenMasters

02/01/2009 · 09:26 PM #29

It seems that only RT guards agree thou. Nerf ruby/tourm if you are going to make the other ships better.

B Biohazard

02/01/2009 · 07:39 PM #28

i agree with Arch and Arch.
A bit more 7-8+ range would be nice for RT

A Africa

02/01/2009 · 03:53 PM #27

dunno about rt, but on slower servers the guards are definetely tough to beat. I think that they are the strongest race atm when it comes to fighting considering their buildrates. Its not really possible to defeat the guards with destroyers as it takes to many turns. Especially not when theres straf involved (thinking about thor here)

Tho it has to be said that me having nirv instead of tyr isnt really helping...lol..

Arch, you should join EoE for a while on fast and help kick all those nasty guards opposing us.. :D No greater feeling that finally getting 7k borrs together and then have ching ( ;) ) kill them in a sec with rubys..lol

*beats himself with a stick

E EnderWiggin

02/01/2009 · 12:07 PM #26

Arch, yeah that actually doeesn`t sound too imba. of course that doesn`t change the fact that it will still never happen. :D

*likes to rain on parades...

A ArchAng3l

02/01/2009 · 10:27 AM #25

due to guard base pr.. when guard on defense, the attacker can have 140% or 150% pr of fleet above the guard fleet easily.. hence will usually have no prob wiping tom ruby on aggressive.. the prob i find stacking as guard is the lack of usable range 7 and above ships to put in the first few stack.. garnet is the oni range 7 useful ship that can be put in a stack.. corun is not really good.. its more for spamming... emerald and topaz is junk :S

also guard lack a pure energy weapon ship.. although we can use c.class ship.. aries gemini buildrate is slow and really expensive.. cancer is oni range 6 and is afraid of missle too.. why don give guard a energy ships with upkeep that guard can absorb without burning a hole in the income.. and for a change, instead of giving guard another ship that build fast, why don give guard a ship that build slow.. give guard a pure energy ships with low buildrate (10k pr a turn maybe) with decent range (7 or 8)..

L Labratmaze1

02/01/2009 · 07:24 AM #24

Arch , if your B.swords had of been 2nd in the stack he would have lost , the stack was good just a wrong guess or in this case you were probably offline when the att, was made so you didn`t know who would be attacking this stack.

L Labratmaze1

02/01/2009 · 07:18 AM #23

I am no great offensive or defensive player just ordinary, but this game is like poker, you play the player not the cards and hope for a little luck :)

D DrunkenMasters

02/01/2009 · 02:47 AM #22

Yeah well arch, he messed up with some stacks but he knew you were balanced, so he was 6 stacked. 6 stack usually wins easily against balanced, add up your base and his, and that he hit exactly from 130%(or close) and you will see his stacks were probably 2x of each of yours. And basicly broads wiped themselves on hammers giving a free hit for them.

A ArchaeoptyrexOP

02/01/2009 · 02:30 AM #21

XXX attacked you. Attack was successful !

Name Units Casualties Remaining
XXX`s fleet
Tyr Dreadnought 72 0 72
D.Bullhead Cruiser 148 0 148
Hercules 20 18 2
M.Lyth Dreadnought 30 5 25
M.Flysch Battleship 124 97 27
D.Hammerhead Frigate 232 111 121
Strafez Queen 20 20 0
V.Borrelly Destroyer 25 25 0
Pike Destroyer 8 8 0
Large Strafez Runner 1 1 0

Archaeoptyrex`s fleet
Large Strafez Fodder 2,070 606 1,464
K.Hun-Li Destroyer 8 8 0
Strafez Queen 440 440 0
L.Garnet Frigate 11 11 0
Large Strafez Runner 900 900 0
F.Broadsword Destroyer 344 344 0
G.Quartz Frigate 10 1 9
Ruby Corvette 32 32 0
G.Agate Fighter 27 5 22
Tourmaline Fighter 54 54 0

Colonies Captured
Name Type Land Size
E.1398 Marshy 117
E.1397 Tainted C.1 156

01/01/09
06:16 PM XXX
5,617,324 Archaeoptyrex
4,382,065 Lost

(about 550k base pr, pretty standard)

This was hit on aggressive (checked on sim)
Note: tyr on fodder, herc on queen, lyth on garnet, flysch on runner, hammer on broad
maybe bulls on li is bad on my part, but this was a decent defensive attempt.

I struggle to think how I could have tried much more -- and still a loss, indeed 76% damage done, just short of 3 taken.

nice win btw.

A ArchaeoptyrexOP

02/01/2009 · 02:24 AM #20

Hmm, I do like Starseeker`s point -- maybe indeed guards are meant to be defensively weak.

Maybe I didn`t comment earlier, but I wasn`t talking about guard attack ability -- although on that subject, it`s in my opinion fairly difficult to win three.

My suggestions were about defense. I explicitly insisted that no range change to ruby or tourm.

But I don`t see how a range 7 hunli (remember it`s already range 6 > herc range) would change things offensively much.
Maybe a range 8 corun is excessively (could actually fight angels -- queen build is very slow comparatively) powerful, but a range 8 garnet?

Maraudian: uh ... I am reasonably familiar with guard stack defense.

lemme give an example in my next post

S starseeker

02/01/2009 · 01:49 AM #19

Seems each player wants a bit of an edge for their favored race. GC has been nicely balanced for years. I actually appreciate that we don`t get messed with like UC.

I play mostly Terran, Miner and Collective. Guards are some of favorite targets although a bit frustrating when they actually use the neutral ships on defense. At the same time, I almost never win when attacked by a Guard. If Lakko provides a bit of offensive frustration for the Guardian race, good. They don`t need to be totally omnipotent on offense. With their awesome, amazing offensive power, nice for them to have a bit of defensive vulnerability.

A AGM

02/01/2009 · 01:05 AM #18

Yes i did, i knew there was a reason i dont really write emails or comments on something just after waking up

D DrunkenMasters

02/01/2009 · 01:00 AM #17

You mean no defense.

A AGM

02/01/2009 · 12:54 AM #16

Maraudian you also play without a base pr as guard for the majority of your battles which is a huge bonus to a guard.

As loof said i think your main problem is that you like to play agg still even as guard, ive experimented with it massively but without a bit of luck or good deduction of what the enemy has you will lose most time. So your pretty much stuck with careful or normal for your hits if you want to win.

The biggest issue i have with guards is their complete inability to damage the new miner sbs during a uw. if i remember correctly you cant get 1 guard ship that does more than about 40% of its pr as damage. Im not asking for something that even does its own pr but even removing no retal from topaz would at least let people damage lakko a little

D DrunkenMasters

02/01/2009 · 12:47 AM #15

Maraudian, you usually play at the PR range where there are only newbies and you don`t really have base PR so you are not the real representative of the whole idea of being guardian...

M Maraudian

02/01/2009 · 12:39 AM #14

its pretty much impossible to lose atacking with guardian , and i rarely lose stacking , but then i use strafez and nuetral , and i often get PM`s mentioning how pesky and hard it is to win , maybe there just used to newb none skilled spamming guardians but meh... its EASY to beat all the ships you mention , infact i pray people use them when im stacked...

why not try counter stacking like me , its fun =D

Reply