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Guard range

Started by Archaeoptyrex · 01/01/2009 · 10:19 PM · 32 replies · 1 read
A ArchaeoptyrexOP
OP 01/01/2009 · 10:19 PM
Time for guard comments (complaints) again.

Let`s just recap on which ships will tear through most of ruby/li/tourm (garnet corun too):

destroyers:
P thor, P zeus
M chlorite
M calcite (maybe)
Tiger, and not forgetting
Pikes (deals with those nasty queens/fodder/runner too!)

Slightly bigger ships:
(NEW) Hammerhead
(NEW) Bullhead
M flysch (well a little)

Big ships:
(NEW) M Lyth
(the mighty) Tyr
Angel
Pyth (maybe), Nirv (maybe)
Herc

With the three big new additions (which the newer virals tend to take at least 2 of) it`s become impossible to defend even half reasonably.

1: Building neutrals followed by guard ships doesn`t work! Virals can now have many many high range ships
(e.g. generically, how about pike tyr herc borry thor angel bull lyth chlorite flysch
that`s a very reasonable ship choice).

I`ve played every race for a long time and I don`t think guards have ever had it so rough. (comments from vets?)

2. High pr defense: you might argue that a corundum spam is a good high pr defense -- but people have bullheads (not afraid to use them) and they kill all guard ships.

3. So maybe that leaves the good old queen ruby/li/tourm half-stack defense. Well with tyrs, bulls and angels whatever order ruby/li/tourm is in they`ll die, and second round the queens will go.

So I do think guard range needs to go up a little:
D DrunkenMasters
02/01/2009 · 12:31 AM
I`d rather have guard have some ships with pure energy damage thou...
D DrunkenMasters
02/01/2009 · 12:27 AM
L class have 8 and 9 range but they are quite useless. But yeah, as loof said you hit aggro with guard being stacked, you better don`t expect to win haha
D DrunkenMasters
02/01/2009 · 12:23 AM
Lol, arch, you actually believe what you say? I agree with yoshi more than you(probably first time ever), half the ships you mentioned don`t actually kill ruby and tourm at all, they fail big time. And you get a list of pure misseles/mostly missiles there. Well, if you are stacked with enough strafez half of these ships will die doing close to nothing. Bullhead can be held with fodders easily, and die horribly if not used on aggressive against ruby/tourm(with big advantage as well). Bulls die hitting queens, broads and swords too. So yeah, guards can have pretty reasonable defense. But if you stack only/mostly with guard ships and expect to win or to be guaranteed the win leading fez or L class, that is simply not the reality. If people expect you to stack on defense you are pretty easy to be killed honestly. Try mixing it up, stacking, spamming and what not.
A ArchaeoptyrexOP
01/01/2009 · 11:57 PM
well actually hoko and lakko are pretty decent 50 and 55k build, although that`s a different subject altogether.

my point is that even a close-to-best-attempt guard defense is easily owned.
A close-to-best viral defense is *not* by any means easily owned (sure you can probably take one or two with a spam, but that`s not owning :P)
E EvilLoof
01/01/2009 · 11:23 PM
yes but unless maraudian have xed up some more since last i checked there is still no 8 range ship with a build rate close to 1 corun?

and boohoo runner spam will own 90% of all virals when defending, how hard can it be. Stop crying!

seems to me your the one crying loof

Edited by Maraudian on 2009-01-02
A ArchaeoptyrexOP
01/01/2009 · 11:01 PM
note to loof: the build rate of corun is 1 per turn (so less build rate than garnet) as is emerald.

The anfit-build mod has an error
A ArchaeoptyrexOP
01/01/2009 · 11:00 PM
1: Why wouldn`t you attack a guard on aggressive?
Why would you *possibly* build destroyers and then attack on careful?

Of course ruby/li/tourm outbuild pikes/chlorites -- but I`m talking about defending as guard -- offline you have as much time as you like to build.

ruby/li/tourm do *not* out-build some combo of herc/tyr/angel/lyth/bullhead
(all of which will tear through say garnets/quartz/emerald/agate)

2: at 1.29x, lyths own ruby -- and remember with guard base pr, you`ll more likely be at 1.4 or 1.5 when you`re actually attacking.

146 lyths vs 300 rubies: 84 lyths die, 296 rubies die.
I don`t understand why you insist on wiping first round. There are two rounds in any battle.

As an example. If you (the reader) were defending as guard with your best "reasonable" 10-stack at, say, 10 mil pr with say 1mil base (so you`re allowed neutrals, but not aries :P), and a (decent) viral comes up -- building happily away -- aiming at you, what do you think your odds of survival are?
E EvilLoof
01/01/2009 · 10:57 PM
and 8 range corundum LOL ok well if you cut the ship in half in hull, pr etc... you cant have an 8 range ship with that buildrate. sry for multiple posts
E EvilLoof
01/01/2009 · 10:56 PM
of course your type of player don`t fit as a guard. As me you are Aggro Aggro Aggro. Do something else, you rock as viral, and haven`t fought you as terran but i bet your good at that too.
E EvilLoof
01/01/2009 · 10:54 PM
Guards are in no way on the bottom of the food chain. Its only fair that sick build rates and the 3 best ships in game(player available ships anyway) is supplied by a sort of crabpy shipyard. And seriously the support ships only gotten better in the last "balancings" corundum and l.class is actually something you can concider to build now, it used to be something only WWW did coz she was completely clueless.

The game gotten worse with the balancings as every race now got a few imba ships and everyone build only those( bullhead maru brig collective etc...) but guards actually been made a bit more versatile than they used to. So yea stop crying.
Y Yoshi
01/01/2009 · 10:24 PM
you know that lyth need 1.6x more than ruby/tourm PR to wipe them first round and dont get fuked up badly on first?

You know as well that all those lovely ships(miner at least, pike as well) need the 1.6x more pr...?

And you know that 60% of those ships(destroyer) lose horribly vs tourm/ruby on carefull so you have to move ur butt a bit and attack agg? Fun thing is, the buildrate of those 2 ship that can outbuild you very easy:P?
A ArchaeoptyrexOP
01/01/2009 · 10:23 PM
corundum and maybe garnet need to be range 8. (esp corun, need ONE non-neutral ship that might stand up to bullheads attacking on aggressive).

Hunli needs to be range 7 and have no-retal (tyrs lyths bulls etc etc, I`ve already talked about this).
The li has been weak for a long time (ever since tyrs came in).

ruby and tourm are still powerful ships and should NOT have range increase
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