1week till T emp H mow edit`s

herc is pretty good for kinetic too, but yes terran could use more kinetic in their arsenal.

I agree exactly with what Arch said- the Emp. is one of the old stand-bys for the lower stacks, and its build rate makes it an attractive candidate. I`ve always thought Terrans were weak on Kinetic attack. While the Broadsword makes a tremendous difference, it isn`t available to non-paid players.

Other than that, if you want energy with range, you can go Garuda (9 range), Kal (8), then Taurus or Sentouki (both 7). For kinetic with range, you go with Sword with 8 range, but then the next options are Taurus (7) or Spear (6). Because of this, I think Terrans need a good kinetic weapon ship with 7 range.

Guards need a bit of a redesign, methinks. *Runs to catch his bus for work*

note that guard does not have ship with 3 attack type too :P

"ships shouldn`t really have >2 attack types each (why bother with attack types otherwise). "

I might agree with that statement if it weren`t for the fact that most starbases have 3 attack types, Terrans have Nirvana, A miner has flysch, the pyth for maru, etc. So why in the world are collective denied a ship of this nature?

And I do agree that another no-retal ship would be helpful in fighting pure spams. Collective doesn`t even have a no-retal ship without a no-defense on it while other races do, so giving the MOW this ability without the no-defense part might be an idea if you reduce hull and mods in favor of range and firepower (dangerous like the borr starbase without making it game breaking....of course).

and i completely agree with arch. collectives could use some more no retal ships. they have a nice armada, dont get me wrong, but its definitely not fair getting eaten alive any time mention of rubys or tourmalines are thrown into the mix.

i can see the mow decision is closing in, and frankly it looks like we`re coming to a conclusion on the emp... wonder what`s going to be next on the redesign list :P

Another lower-stack ship-filler would be nice. Currently, that 9th/10th stack (if you`re using it) is not hugely attractive ... what with kalieums or ryus or sentoukis being the options ...

A decent mid range, mid hull, mid attack, mid build, mid mods, ... maybe no retal would be a nice bonus. A higher energy shield/ energy attack would be decent since other than strafez-weakness, that`s about it.

As you say, terrans survive fine as it is, but a little more variation would be good.

*Nods* My ideas thus far have not actually had a whole lot of design thought to them... I mostly threw them together to generate discussion. When I have time (hopefully tomorrow after work) I will do a bit of actual designing on the MoW and the Emp. The Emp is the much more difficult design question, though, because what, exactly, should it`s role be? It`s easy to decide what the MoW should be, an aggressive defender, but the Emp is a much harder question... terrans have done fine without it, so what role are they missing that it can ideally fit?

The GC-pr calculator has always made high shields/hull too cheap (hull/4 or something like that).

That`s why ships with huge hull/mods (same thing) are often overpowered (think lictor, MoW, ruby etc).

So as Maru suggests, drop the hull a lot. Also, ships shouldn`t really have >2 attack types each (why bother with attack types otherwise).

something like:
E: 100,
M: 150

H: 600
pr: 400

range: 6 or 7

mods +10, +25, +55, -15 are reasonable ... still a nice ship.
build rate: 40

possibly throw in no-retaliate. Collectives really need more no-retal -- a pure spam can tear through many collective stacks.

Just my thoughts. The various suggestions for T emp have all been reasonable. I think higher energy damage would be nice.

no to range 8 emp.
drgnbrn if you never used mow you shouldnt talk about it in the first place.....
mallow not every collective does that... some spam mows on defense...... especially hoarding collectives. mow needs a complete overhaul , not just decrease the shielding on chem. as deiloche said why should there be a ship weak only to chem :/ and a collective ship at that... who in their right mind would use straf against collective?
unless i know hes spamming sloop/brig i dont use straf at all against collective.

storm we aint making it better. we`re nerfing it :)

Why should we make a ship that is weak ONLY to straf, brigs, or borrs? Seriously... this ship needs a huge overhaul.

Yes, you are right, if you are hit with a nirv spam on aggressive, MoWs will lose one colony. Firstly, why are you using NIRVANAS attacking on aggressive... secondly, ONE COLONY, spam on spam. If you know what you`re hitting, you should be able to take three with a wide variety of ship setups. The MoW severely limits that... it basically requires certain setups to have any hope of beating it, which is horrible. Lakkos and Hokos actually die to quite a few different ships and aren`t terribly powerful... the MoW just doesn`t die, and considering that, as a starbase, the percentage of loss determines your victory or not, that is a serious problem. The entire idea of the current MoW is flawed. It needs to be completely redesigned (as myself and several others have begun drafting up ideas for) not just toned down "a bit". It fails the role it was supposed to have. Any StarCraft addicts out there should understand what I mean about a ship not having its own distinct role. The MoW fails miserably at it`s job, so our job is to redesign it.

why when the MOW is rarely used does it have to be nerfed?

the way i play collective is

-attack anything out of dp

-then get attacked go into dp

-plunder/ research

-repeat

now i am not saying that is the best way to play the race or even a good way to play the race but in my opinion there is very little room in my game strategy for a starbases...

it would have to be a very good starbase for any collective to use it - the ability to wipe out a capital spam without massive loses would encourage use - however as the brigantine is quite good at this.... (i did say quite as nirvanas usually get in the way)

in my opinion i think whatever the MOW is changed to if you are thinking of weakening the hull then replace it with decent range, it needs one of the two

ehh, if you spam MOW and you`re hit with nirv spam on normal or aggressive, you usually lose one colony. I`ve also lost to ryu spams interestingly enough.

So why not simply decrease the chemical shielding of MOW to -50% or -70%? Wouldn`t that solve a lot of problems with MOW being strafez proof despite being weak to strafez?

The hoko and lakko are primarily UW machines. They aren`t game stopping ships. Most ships beat them, as it should be with starbases. The MoW, however, is a completely different story. For most races (excepting collectives) the number one best ship to attack the MoW with is the large strafez runner. Which LOSES to the MoW, on aggressive.

Most races do not have ships that do chemical damage beyond strafez, and strafez is only really useful if it can wipe the target stack or do more damage in PR than it`s own PR. Neither of those are available choices for use on the MoW. And that is on its absolutely weakest shield point against one of the highest damage ratio ships in the game. Any other damage type is almost useless, and guess what... that is about all you have to CHOOSE from when hitting the MoW.

As a collective, I rape MoWs because I just lead brigantines. No other race has a ship that can shred MoWs, though.

So yes, while you may be a fellow Robert Jordan fan, clearly you yourself are the one not looking at the ship specs. THE SHIP IS RIGGED. Starbases are supposed to defend, but they aren`t supposed to be a game stopper. Spamming MoWs, unless you do it all the time, is generally a guaranteed victory.

why not mix mine and deil`s idea? at least give it a shot, or make other suggestions. 100 energy dmg, 100 missile, 100 chem. 250 hull, no retal plus those defensive modifiers? not too bad..

and yet you dont understand the lakko and hoko, aminers are suppose to be defensive heavy, one way of solving that was with the starbases, read the description and learn the races better.

Nerfing the MoW is a must. Why change all the attack ships when we can just solve it by changing the MoW, creating more work than what is needed drgnr.

btw, that was not a " what`s the point comment"
that was a "people do know what they are talking about" comment
nerf it, don`t nerf it, won`t matter in the long run because it is a defensive platform first and foremost.

... Well. if its anything but better? i wont complain. I`ll laugh. ;)

well from what i understand it IS an interesting firepower defensive ship.
lemme see it i am tracking here.
the lakko star base is a heavy duty star base that no one thinks needs to be touched.
the mow star base is a lower power star base that is usually severely reduced in number when it is attacked, but yet everyone wants to reduce the power of the station?
look at the dang specs for it. the only great thing about it is the defensive modifiers, which a star base is supposed to have anyway.
now i know i am not the end all beat all collective player on the server, but i have yet to see a truly good player get beaten by star bases. a ton of marginal players? sure, but not the good ones. change the attacking ships around and make them better, but seriously, a STAR BASE? come on!