Guard Balancing

OP 10/11/2012 · 09:01 PM #1

This thread was originally being pushed by some staff members then was closed due to the server not wanting to drastically change up K.class. I was sitting up late last night thinking about the advantages Guard has over the other races and I came up with some balancing ideas that I think are solid and require no hard coding.

#1 Guard can explore so I would remove the G. Diamond all together or in the very least redesign it on a much smaller build rate. With gordos it makes it way op for a guard to climb in dp to 100 mill in an hour. Im in favor of dropping it all together making guard more challenging.

#2 Three k.class is too much, remove Hun Xe or give the player a choice between Zen or xe if hes paid but not both.

#3 Redesign Corrundom to be long range, no retal and pure kinetic. I have submited tested designs in the past that were tested and it took a long time to do it.

G GalacticMercenaries

12/11/2012 · 12:36 AM #24

guards are not over powered any more that is correct there are just more guards on the server now that i encourage people to go guardian to join our all guard fed everyone can do the same and encourage virals to the game

D DrunkenMasters

11/11/2012 · 02:10 PM #23

Empire age 1692 day(s)

People like me should have at least a little saying about how this goes, don`t you think?

There are others too, Mestu, Avaline, Wingnut, Balzac, AccordEx etc on TB that have very ancient guards.

D DrunkenMasters

11/11/2012 · 02:09 PM #22

"and don`t even start with the 25k turn stuff, if i could change the requirements i would. but i also don`t see it as an excuse. you know the race, you knew what you would have to do research all ships and knew if it was worth it or not. it`s not like you have to spend 25k turns to research it each time you use it. besides that 25000 turns gets you two k class ships, not one."

Exactly, EE, I knew what I was going for, that is why I spent the turns. If it is dramatically changed, I wouldn`t have spent the turns.

Darkets, your suggestions are waaaay off the mark. 21k build rate? Just W T F?

Seriously guys, you are admins of a game, not of a server, think about it.

D DrunkenMasters

11/11/2012 · 02:08 PM #21

Guards WERE overpowered, but now are NOT. Do you remember that most of the races got double build rates on their spamtastic caps?

C Cattleya

11/11/2012 · 12:48 PM #20

buh bye Diamonds

R Renegade Admin

Admin 11/11/2012 · 07:12 AM #19

Frankly, Guardians are far overpowered at the moment. For months now it`s been to the point that they are completely destroying what the standard for a balanced race is. No one can argue this point, I`m stating a fact not an opinion here.

I think redesigning the Xe, Zen, and Corun is a good idea. Nerfing Diamond may also help to slightly alleviate a bit of the issue.

I wouldn`t worry about the specifics of the re-designs yet until everyone agrees on what is needed. It may not be specifically that, but something should surely be done if you all want to play a relatively balanced game.

E EphemeralEternity

11/11/2012 · 04:49 AM #18

They`re spit ball designs DM, just running through some designs in my head, not proposing any of them be implemented, merely to build off of. and yes DM we all only look out for RT, because none of us in charge play any other server or ever have, and we`ve never done k class research on TB servers either. in fact we`ll be shutting down all TB servers next week because we care so little about them.

and don`t even start with the 25k turn stuff, if i could change the requirements i would. but i also don`t see it as an excuse. you know the race, you knew what you would have to do research all ships and knew if it was worth it or not. it`s not like you have to spend 25k turns to research it each time you use it. besides that 25000 turns gets you two k class ships, not one.

also DG, i don`t think 8 range on a ship with 4 fairly high positive mods and a chem damage to pr ratio that high will balance very well even if the build rate remains one. it would make a new improved spam ship on RT, doesn`t matter how slow it is because it would be well worth the turn usage and an invaluable ship for guards but it`s a start

Edited by EphemeralEternity on 2012-11-11

G GalacticMercenaries

11/11/2012 · 04:13 AM #17

Me Like

D {DrKsT}GuArDiAnOP

11/11/2012 · 03:24 AM #16

Once again this is untested but it would make a nice compliment to the xe refit, the idea here is for zen to be an offensive range eight destroyer with the shield mods being greatly reduced but increasing range and weapon to pr ratio

Name K.Hun-Zen -concept refit
Class Destroyer
Weapon
Energy Damage 3500
Kinetic Damage 0
Missile Damage 0
Chemical Damage 7000
Hull 17,000
Range 8
Scanner rating 2,442
Power rating 18,199

Unit(s) in fleet
Credits available
Cost per unit tbd
Upkeep tbd

1 turn produces 1.0
Turns available 45

Purchase unit(s)
Total Cost

Ship Attributes
Defense Modifier
Energy Shield + 55 %
Absorption Shield +55%
ECM + 35 %
Ionized Hull + 35 %

G GalacticMercenaries

11/11/2012 · 03:13 AM #15

#1 get rid of diamond- higher your base pr the harder you have to work to get off the ground.

#2 redesign corrundom to be a useful stacking tool

#3 limit guard to only two k.class ships or what raist suggested on redesigning zen and or xe

#4 Hun li Stay The Same

D {DrKsT}GuArDiAnOP

11/11/2012 · 03:09 AM #14

here is more or less what I envision a usefull xe would be like, if we lessen the shield mods and improve range getting into the deystroyer class while dropping the br at the same time.. This would be more of a def version and the zen would be a range 8 offensive version. I like to test before posting but havnt had time.

Name K.Hun-Xe -concept refit
Class Destroyer
Weapon
Energy Damage 0
Kinetic Damage 0
Missile Damage 3000
Chemical Damage 5000
Hull 23,000
Range 7
Scanner rating 3,279
Power rating 21,199

Unit(s) in fleet
Credits available
Cost per unit tbd
Upkeep tbd

1 turn produces 1.0
Turns available 45

Purchase unit(s)
Total Cost

Ship Attributes
Defense Modifier
Energy Shield + 75 %
Absorption Shield + 75 %
ECM + 50 %
Ionized Hull + 50 %

D DrunkenMasters

11/11/2012 · 02:20 AM #13

You all look at RT, but I did research 25 000 turns on fast. amd tjat os about 2000 hours wasted.

D DrunkenMasters

11/11/2012 · 02:19 AM #12

Seriously?

25 000 truns for a ship that is completely useless EE? less than 25% damage:PR and shields BR comparable to that of Lictor... Hmm...

The only one acceptable looks like concept 3 for XE.

E EphemeralEternity

11/11/2012 · 01:29 AM #11

Spit balling idea`s basically just untested off the head combos for i suppose it would be xe

K.Concept I
Damage
E: 0
K: 0
M:6000
C:14000
Hull 85000
Shields
ES: +85%
KS: +70%
ECM: 0%
IH: +20%
Range 6
PR: 85000

K.Concept II
Damage
E: 0
K: 0
M:10000
C:15000
Hull 75000
Shields
ES: +70%
KS: +50%
ECM:+20%
IH: +20%
Range 5
PR: 80000
No Def
No Ret

K.Concept III
Damage
E: 0
K: 0
M:20000
C:10000
Hull 100000
Shields
ES: +45%
KS: +40%
ECM:+0%
IH: +10%
Range 7
PR: 75000

K.Concept IV
Damage
E:2500
K: 0
M:2500
C:10000
Hull 100000
Shields
ES: +90%
KS: +30%
ECM:+0%
IH: +60%
Range 5
PR: 75000

Something K.Concept Like I
Damage
E:0
K:1500
M:3000
C:7500
Hull 32000
Shields
ES: +75%
KS: +55%
ECM:-20%
IH: +15%
Range 6
PR: 28000
BR: 3
No Def
No Ret

D {DrKsT}GuArDiAnOP

11/11/2012 · 12:14 AM #10

Im all for raist`s idea as long as hun li stays the same. And as for the "Lore" aspect of the game it remains an integral part of the original design for which Guard was made. Some of us appreciate the background and story that adds a little flavor to playing this game otherwise were just logging in to say "hah my numbers are better than your numbers"

Guard will still be a fast moving race either way but compared to the handicaps that maru and coll have vrs guard this is why I propose:

#1 get rid of diamond- higher your base pr the harder you have to work to get off the ground.

#2 redesign corrundom to be a useful stacking tool

#3 limit guard to only two k.class ships or what raist suggested on redesigning zen and or xe

F fortythree

11/11/2012 · 12:07 AM #9

I can see that point DG but given the high build rate of the other ships its only an issue for a based guard who has someone waiting on high with a retal.

D {DrKsT}GuArDiAnOP

11/11/2012 · 12:01 AM #8

Look at it from this angle, young to established guard empires have a pr ranging from 100k- 3 mill pr. 4 mill pr on up starts getting op. Bases arent needed needed until your base pr gets to a point where you cant get a fleet up sufficient to protect yourself. Getting rid of Diamond,That would help bridge the gap between new guards and op-vet empires.

F fortythree

10/11/2012 · 11:56 PM #7

I think you`ve a good idea here Raist, can`t remember the last time I got hit by a guard with a 10 stack. They would need to be slower building though to maintain some balance but they would give Guards something to counter agressive hits better.

R Raistilin

10/11/2012 · 11:41 PM #6

I`m in favor for completely redesigning 2 of the K class ships like Xe and Zen. I`ve always been a supporter for this, in fact I`m the staff member who weekly purposes guardian rebalancing. My opinion is we need to shift away from the rigid mindset of "guardians are defenders of the light and need to be able to build super fast!". If people honestly care that much for the "lore" then this probably wasn`t the game for you to begin with.

Zen/Xe redesign - Turn them into ships more in line with the other race`s destroyers. What I mean is decent range (nothing crazy like thors) with high damage, but the hull/shield mods make them impossible to simply spam and win without any worry. Turn the K class into powerful ships to be used in flanking, and you could end up with more guardians building up stack fleets instead of just spaming k class, quartz, and l class.

F fortythree

10/11/2012 · 10:49 PM #5

Looking at guards overall I think the biggest issue is that young guard empires are generally balanced but older guard empires can become ridiculously op. I could be entirely off on this as I`ve never played guard (and unless Stephen invests some visable effort in this game I never will). It seems to me that guards have a massive advantage in battle that is countered by having an absolutely awful economy. I feel this is reasonably balanced and should make guards a demanding race to play which have a place on the server.
However the older massive guard empires who have event won, PTed and/or Gordoed up planets with massive land quantities simply unbalance this as they haven`t an awful economy to balance their ships superiority.
I feel that given this situation the best way to "fix" Guards would be a moderate reduction in some shield mods. For example I think that making K class more vulnerable to missile or chemical attack might be a better bet than nerfing their virtual invulnerability to kinetic and energy as it means that a well planned attack can damage them from suitably under PR but they would still be good defensive ships against many common spams.
With DGs point I think that diamond is not something as perceive as a huge issue, the ability to build quickly seems to be integral to guards and as long as it is suitable offset by limitations on acting at high PR indefinately seems entirely reasonable.

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