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Repeated Attacks

Archived Started by Arteasunne · 24/12/2008 · 06:01 PM · 19 replies · 0 reads
Archived thread. It was closed and moved to the archive, which is where the board has always kept closed threads. Nothing has been lost — every post is below.
A ArteasunneOP
Though the posted ethics guidelines bar more than 2 consective attacks, a recent violation of such by TheWorldUnited upon my empire seems to show me that some players don`t consider unethical play to be cheating. Maybe this is true; but, then why post a guideline to limit attacks to only 2 in a row? TheWorldUnited readily admits he attacked my empire 3 times in a row and both his federation leader and TheWorldUnited don`t consider violating such a guideline or any other unethical play to be cheating.

They both say everyone does it and no punishments are every given out for such unethical play. So, does violating game ethics mean nothing? If unethical play is encouraged by some players and condoned by the game staff what kind of gaming environment will this create for all players? If being unethical isn`t considered cheating, or taken as seriously, then players will do other things to gain an unfair advantage and ruin the game experience for their victims.

I am not really looking to create a problem here or get anyone in trouble. However, I try to be honest and ethical and I hope for such conduct by those I interact with. If such unethical action is truly irrevalent, then what was the point of even posting the ban against it in the game?
R Raistilin
Well the repeated attacks are placed under game ethics category. ethics are not rules, are not solid mandated principles that must be followed upon pain of death. They`re Ethics, the ideal of right and wrong and how they are seen tend to be much different between one person and another. You`re arguing ethics , which are intangible.
A ArteasunneOP
As mentioned in previous postings,orderly gameplay can`t rely on the whims of each player to decide which of the posted rules, or guidelines, to use or to personally interpret when to apply a rule, or guideline. The section clearly titled "House Rules" begins with the following:

IN GAME GUIDELINES


Why do we have guidelines ?

Guidelines are to ensure a friendly and happy environment for all players. Please follow the rules of the game which apply to all aspects of the game (including game play, conversing with other players, and all other activities) to allow the most enjoyable experience for all of those involved.

This seems fairly clear and beyond question that the guidelines, or rules, listed after this opening must be followed by all players in all aspects of the game. Otherwise, what is the point of even having a "House Rules" section? It might as well be said that real world traffic regulations are only customary etiquette that can be ignored by drivers, who might choose to use the opposite of the road to drive. When no traffic cops are present and with little other traffic a driver can safely and easily drive on the other side of the road without fear of citation. However, this illegal driving is still against the laws and rules of the road.

It is the same with the posted House Rules. They are required to be used by each and every player to best insure a friendly and orderly playing of the game. Blatantly violating any of the rules, or guidelines, will lead to disorder and players getting hurt feelings. Personally saying a guideline intended to be followed by all players at all times isn`t a rule and can be ignored is merely a misguided justification to wrongly allowed a player to violating of the rules. Just because some guideline has no specific punishment for violating it, or many players might regularly violate it, is poor grounds to dismiss following the guideline, or rule. Follow all of the House Rules Section to insure a behaved game
C chessRPGrulerKoA
It seems that the entire issue here is botched categorization. The `ethics` that Stephen put in the House Rules pop-up do not belong there, nor are they rules. Neither are they a guide to ethics for the game in general; rather, they suggest a method of politeness (i.e. ways to interact with people with whom you are not at war). If you think of them that way, then by all means take TWU`s attacks as a declaration of war.
I really don`t believe you should be considering the listed ethics as a comprehensive list of ethical guidelines for the game, nor even as a list of overall ethical guidelines to be followed in every situation.
D Deiloche
Ethics is personal opinion, rules are something you have to follow or society will smite you. Big difference. You do not have to agree, or even follow, the generally accepted things to do. Also, pretty much NOBODY in this game considers it bad form to attack somebody multiple times in a row. How else do you intend to kill them, as it the point of the game?

Many do consider scout attacks unethical. That is, the practice of hitting with a small fleet to determine the fleet you are hitting, then hitting with a big fleet. Perhaps, even, the ethics posted refer to that, but, in traditional Stephen way, is worded horribly.
A ArteasunneOP
From the private messages received on this subject and the public replies here, it seems that many have missed the point of my questions and statements. My main complaint is that some players see the rules as trivial to playing the game and feel anything is fair as long as they don`t get caught. It mattered little that I was attacked thrice in a row by the same player. What upset me the most was that he, his federation leader and many that reply think that it is okay to break a posted rule, if not all the posted rules.

Repeated attacks is posted under the House Rules and must be followed if any of the rules are to be followed. The constant barrage that the repeated attack rule, ethics and any rule listed is only a guideline is based on faulty logic and this trvializing the rules is mere personal justification by players that either are ignorant of the posted rules or ignore them or choose to only use some, if any, of the rules.

All games require rules to be followed. Ignoring just one rule leads to chaos in the game and usually results in one or players being unfairly victimized. Victimized players aren`t having fun and to encourage the attitude that rules are mere guidelines or just good manners only results in less fun experienced by the players. It is the players that follow the rules that end up hurt the most, especially when they are called foolish or not-smart by other less rule-observing players. And, new players that read the House Rules will likely believe what is printed there and observe all the rules. So, are new players and those that choose to observe all the posted rules to be taken advantage of because they choose to honor the game and try to encourage all to have fun? To say only some rules need to be followed leads to the most experienced players deciding amongst themselves just what rules they can get away with breaking and using these violations at the expense of others.

This trivialization of the rules is what saddens most.
I Islander
er, ignore my last sentence
I Islander
Hrm. I think I can solve this simply. Ignore all ethics posted. You will not be punished for them.
If it doesn`t you won`t be punished for it.
A ArteasunneOP
A mildly rude private message sent over this matter prompts me to reply further. First, if any other player wishes to berate me over my view that all posted game rules should be followed by each player than make your own opinions public. In addition, explaining that this is a wargame and everyhting is fair is an empty argument. As a game there are rules that must be followed by all players. Again, ethics in gameplay requires players observe the rules at all times or chaos will occur.

Reading the House Rules in their entirety shows that every rule/guideline is importatnt and all should be seriuosly considered by every player. Players that justify violation of anything posted in the House Rules encourage disorder and unruly behavior. Marginalization of the House Rules does a disservice to all players and hinders recruitment of new players. If the veterans feel the rules are only suggestions and new players follow the posted rules, believing what is said there, than it is the new players that end up unfairly victimized by the veterans. This might be fun for veterans, but what recourse, except quitting, do novice players have when even the game guides say it is a wargame and everything is fair. Also, some of the thread replies suggest that the rules are merely guidelines for using good manners. Do new players feel better when politely victimized by veterans, who choose which of the House Rules to apply in their attacks?

Surprisingly no other player supported using of all the posted House Rules. The overwheling sentiment seems to be that any immediate gain is fair, as long as it doesn`t get the player banned. So, unethical behavior is condoned and encouraged, because it isn`t a banning offense. In fact several listed rules aren`t enforced by a banning threat. Thus, a shortsighted lust for immediate gain trivializes all the rules and prevents many new players from enjoying the game and they won`t continue playing for long.
E EphemeralEternity
Are you actually placing Ethics along side things that which when abused gives an unfair advantage over others? It's one thing to be Ethical and to have a certain amount of standards or principles by which to hold yourself too, but those are purely your own and no one can enforce those on to another individual.

Anything that grants a player an unfair advantage over another is typically seen as breaking the rules on most games. This is no different on this game, and those are the types of things that we do enforce. However something ethical we do encourage and in some cases when things go to far we do punish people. However the Ethical guideline about attack a player more than twice has never been enforced and I doubt it ever will be since there are other things in place to counter those who hit you over and over in continuously.

For example, any empire that sustains so much damage, from being attacked, will be granted damage protection even if they get hit multiple times. It's very unlikely that you would lose twice and still be out of damage protection unless you built ships between those attacks. So if you come back out of damage protection, it then becomes your problem as all you had to do was stay in damage protection. You could also build starbases until you're out of some ones range then come out of damage protection to help avoid them (unless you are a race without Bases {Marauder.}) There are also artifacts than can be used to take away players turns; if they don't have turns then they can't attack you. There is also an artifact that prevents any one from attacking you, albeit for a short time period, but it does exist and can be useful at times. There are a few other options that you have with artifacts as well.

Continued below.( some times 2k characters still isn't enough)
E EphemeralEternity
Now about a how a lack of Ethics degrades the game, not all laws any where are fully enforced. Now it is true that if Ethics are not breed into any society then it will eventually bring about some chaos, generally in the form of law breaking. Though no one can condemn people for their Ethics until such time as those Ethics endanger some one else or harassment of some kind ensues. It'd be the same as judging people based on a thought or an idea. There is always a degree of unethical people in the world, and whether or not they wish to move on to rule/law breaking is up to them but we can't pass judgment until they cross that line.

There are a handful of things that the punishment for is nil or slightly reduced. That is for a reason though, because we treat every situation differently and try not to make people pay for the mistakes of others. Though should someone repeat an offense, or blatantly ignore warnings, then punishments can be quite harsh. Yes, something as trivial as being attacked multiple times goes without a thought on this game, because most people counter or build something to make their oppressor regret ever hitting them. On top of that it forces people to have to defend themselves and gain more experience.

If the neglect of this particular ethical guideline has in any way procreated any degree of greater evil on this game then they have or will be dealt with in time. Besides enforcing some kind of punishment for disobeying that guideline would, in my opinion, make the game less fun, because you always need some degree of evil, or injustice to fight against.

I'm pretty sure I didn't sway your views nor is it likely that I quelled your concerns on this matter, though I wasn't trying to, as it seems as though you've already made your mind up on this. I was merely trying to further explain some of the views of the others here as well as add in a few of my own.
A ArteasunneOP
Personal ethics are the whole basis for obeying the rules. It is ethical to follow rules and to interact in an orderly manner with others. No ethics leads only to social disorder. Using good ethics prevents the excuse I only did what others did. Ethical gameplay makes it fun for all. Merely suggesting ethics be used or saying it is good manners will quickly lead to players taking shortcuts and doing dishonorable and impolite game actions.

Again, being polite is include in the same Ethics section. If as some say ethics are only a suggestion then being polite is only a suggestion, making rudeness a completely biased impression and nullifying any sound judgment by the game staff when punishing players merely considered to be too rude for their own personal liking. So, just suggesting ethics means that punishing rude players becomes a wanton and arbitrary act of retribution by the game staff.

Ethics guard against personal biases being the only guide for decision making. Without strong adherence to using good ethics each person decides on their own internal basis what is wrong for them and what they are willing to do that is good. No ethics means that each person does whatever they care to do a any moment, which might be contrary or extremely hurtful to the interests of others.Suggesting ethics is the same as merely suggesting rules to follow.

Violating any rule means little because first you have to get overtly caught doing it and then the punishment is meted out by someone who likely feels the same about ethics and rules. leading to a mere slap on the wrist. Thus, letting each player to decide what House Rules to follow and what each means leads to all rules being trivialized, with chaos in the game. All listed House Rules are there for serious consideration.

Personally: I seek only that all rules be followed by each player, without need for punishment.
Note: Endless win streaks can never be for the next battle is unknown, leading to a possible defeat
420BadWolf
*sigh* alot of things actually share the same pages.. rules is no exception a good example would be

Game : Things to remember

1. No one wins all the time (average ratio is 20-40% win ratio)
2 Like in real-life this game has its ups and downs. If you lose a lot of battles / resources, dont lose heart just build up again, everyone goes through rough patches, it is those who stick around that get stronger.

and also ethics.. Ethics is nothing more then a suggestion... I.E would you suggest that someone who happens to get a long win streak without losing should be punished simply because it says no one wins all the time in the rules? no you wouldn`t.. rules themselves for the Game/HC/Forum/Chat are known/enforced... in no way are ethics rules nor were they intended to be they were simply placed on the same page with the rules in the guidelines to make them easy for all to see.
C chessRPGrulerKoA
Why does removing ethics destroy the structure of the rules?
A ArteasunneOP
It is seemingly obvious from the replies to this message that many seem to be overlooking the fact that this rule(yes it is a rule-if you bother to look) is located with all the other rules in the House Rules section. If you say ethics aren`t rules that need to be followed than the first listed House Rule to follow all the game rules is being broken. Thus, why should players bother following any of the listed rules and players can just engage in any activity they feel like at the moment?

Yes, I know it is a wargame. But, as in any game rules are necessary to provide order and discipline. By throwing out ethics the whole rules structure falls and chaos becomes the norm. Again, being polite at all times is listed along with no repeated attacks as an ethics rule. Thus, making ethics irrelavent means that being polite in the game can be considered unnecessary. The House Rules I believe are listed to be followed by everyone and all the listed rules should be adhered to. It is ridiculous to me that any player, especially a game staffer, should promote the view that any of the listed House Rules should not be followed by the players. If players are only going to avoid engaging in the 7 listed items the House Rules list that might get them banned, then every single listed rule in the House Rules is unnecessarily posted. This attitude that any House Rule can be ignored fosters unethical behavior by players to engage in any activity, even those that will get them banned when caught. Either all the listed House Rules should be seriously followed or none should considered important. Each rule should be for all players and all players should follow each of the rules.

All I required was acknowledgement that the House Rules should be followed. No redress was required, or asked, for my part. However, most players from the offender to even game admins seem to think any of the House Rules, and specificly the Two-Attack Rule, are unnecessary and silly to follow. So sad it is.
G Gronoria
just consider not attacking more than 2 times in a row good manners. Unfortunately people with good manners are an exception.

Back when those `game ethics` were posted there were a lot of people actually respecting them as to not attack empire more than 2 times. However as Sol stated, this is a war game and there are no major objections to attacking an empire as often as you like.

When someone is breaking a rule that person will get punished by an admin though.
S Sol
How can i put this simply for you....

ITS A WAR GAME!!!!
A ArteasunneOP
If posted guidelines aren`t to be considered as important as rules, why bother to posted them? Also, if unethical play is to be tolerated, then why should any rules be followed? Ethics are the basis for following the rules and for any player, let alone a game guide or game admin, to say that players can violate ethics is to condone unruly and unfair gameplay.

Along with the ethics rule for limiting attacks to only two consecutive attacks is the rule to always be polite. So, based on this answer politeness isn`t a rule and rude, impolite players can act with impunity, having little fear of punishment. Either players play with all posted rules and guidelines or anarchy and chaos will become the norm. Again, if it is officially posted as something not to do why should any player/staffer condone, encourage or engage in an activity that is clearly unethical?
C Crack
if u hit someone and he comes out from dp right after, chances are he would wanna counter u.. so u`ll hit again thus avoiding the counter that u would most probably lose.. if u don`t understand lets make it real life situation.. if u fight 1 on 1 and the guy u hit falls.. he stands up and of coz from letting him hit u, u`ll hit him until he falls.. over and over again.. take note that the counters from this game are not like real life.. :)
S Sol
ethics are not rules.
It is perfectly ok to attack an empire as many times in a row as you wish.. it is a war game after all.

gaining unfair advantages via a hack or bug exploit however is.

I`m sorrys if this isnt the answer you want, my only advice can be to build some ships yourself get out there and attack him back. TO BATTLE!

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